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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicyryan View Post
    He is seen as a revisionist who ensured that capitalism was restored in eastern Europe. One who presided over a chaotic collapse of the USSR and ensured that Yeltsin and as a result Putin came to power. Leaving us with the current imperialistic values and promotion of nationalism and jingoism of Putin.

    The 90s were truly a horrible time for the people of the former Soviet states. The standard of living for Russians, for example, still hasn't returned to what it was under the USSR.
    It wasn't that great then, even.

    I don't know why anyone would cheer his dying. He is literally the reason the Cold War was brought to an end because of the reforms he was proposing. The only people with a great standard of living in the USSR were the wealthy, which is fundamentally no different than it is now.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuronosan View Post
    It wasn't that great then, even.

    I don't know why anyone would cheer his dying. He is literally the reason the Cold War was brought to an end because of the reforms he was proposing. The only people with a great standard of living in the USSR were the wealthy, which is fundamentally no different than it is now.
    The entirety of this is incorrect, but there is no sense is debating it as it is rather multifaceted and complex. Due to the layers of history and politics behind it.
    It is regrettable that such a massive piece of recent history is so misunderstood though.

  3. #123
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    Gorbachev's history is complicated only insomuch as that he inherited a functionally defunct empire and was tasked, likely against his will, with managing its fall. I don't believe there was anyone who reasonably could have done more and many who would have done much worse. Whatever negativity is attached to his name is a result of his being the face of the culmination of a decades-long decline.

  4. #124
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    Per capita GDP plummeted in the eastern bloc countries after the fall of the soviet union, but it also significantly reduced the risk of global nuclear annihilation, so who is to say whether it was good or not

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    Per capita GDP plummeted in the eastern bloc countries after the fall of the soviet union, but it also significantly reduced the risk of global nuclear annihilation, so who is to say whether it was good or not
    Yet another can of worms dating back to the repugnancy of Truman. Who, along with the allies, pushed the USSR to create nuclear weapons in the first place. In the inverse, America would never let a foreign hostile power dictate an agenda to it while blatantly brandishing nuclear intimidation. Frankly, calling it intimidation is an understatement. Considering Churchill mandated the creation of Operation Unthinkable in '45. To essentially wipe out the Soviet Union and nuke the fucking Kremlin. This was of course passed along to the Soviets via their spy network.

    Truman was unbelievably arrogant when it came to threatening or intimidating the USSR with nukes. Essentially, when asked what would happen if the Soviets get atomic weapons too. Truman replied that such was never going to happen.

    So, saying the world is safer from nuclear annihilation implies a misrepresentation of the reason there was such a danger in the first place—the US and its allies.

    Before any labels get tossed at me. I am simply stating the basic premise of the historical record that isn't talked about or told from a fair perspective.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    Per capita GDP plummeted in the eastern bloc countries after the fall of the soviet union, but it also significantly reduced the risk of global nuclear annihilation, so who is to say whether it was good or not
    inflation-adjusted higher today than it was back then so guess it all worked out in the end

    plus we got The Witcher 3 out of it

  7. #127
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    And the Metro games

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zealot View Post
    Gorbachev's history is complicated only insomuch as that he inherited a functionally defunct empire and was tasked, likely against his will, with managing its fall. I don't believe there was anyone who reasonably could have done more and many who would have done much worse. Whatever negativity is attached to his name is a result of his being the face of the culmination of a decades-long decline.
    the fairest assessment. he was not blame for the rotting imperial edifice and mass of economic and social contradictions that the USSR had become, seething with unrest among both the urban intelligentsia and Russian nationalists, as well as all ethnic minorities at the reaches of empire. the transition from communism was painful, it was always going to be painful, but far less so than it could have been as Gorbachev declined to intervene militarily in the Warsaw Pact nations (as the Soviets had in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968) when they began tearing down one communist regime after another. perhaps more critically, though he did not desire it he was willing to allow the dissolution of the USSR, unlike the communist hardliners who did their best to push the country into civil war.

    Russia's post-dissolution history was not to be a happy one, but Gorbachev did what few others in history have ever done and oversaw the collapse of a major empire without major bloodshed. za nashu druzjbu old chap.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicyryan View Post
    Before any labels get tossed at me. I am simply stating the basic premise of the historical record that isn't talked about or told from a fair perspective.
    the soviets had a nuclear weapons program before Truman was president or anyone had ever used a nuclear weapon

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    the soviets had a nuclear weapons program before Truman was president or anyone had ever used a nuclear weapon
    Hey, so did the Germans. Are you disputing that the entire USSR wasn't necessitated to produce nuclear arms by the allies because they had a nuclear program beforehand?

  11. #131
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    All the great powers were engaging in military technology expansion during and after WWII and this includes nuclear weapons, the idea that the Soviets were uniquely "necessitated" to do so is silly.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    All the great powers were engaging in military technology expansion during and after WWII and this includes nuclear weapons, the idea that the Soviets were uniquely "necessitated" to do so is silly.
    Lol, it is not silly because they were. Aside from ignoring what I said before, how about:

    Quote Originally Posted by first google result from what looks like a site straight out of the fucking 90s
    During the second week of Allied deliberations at Potsdam, on the evening of July 24, 1945, Truman approached Stalin without an interpreter and, as casually as he could, told him that the United States had a "new weapon of unusual destructive force." Stalin showed little interest, replying only that he hoped the United States would make "good use of it against the Japanese." The reason for Stalin's composure became clear later: Soviet intelligence had been receiving information about the atomic bomb program since fall 1941.
    Even Wikipedia can tell you that USSR started their program in '42 after Stalin was urged to. Out of concerns the Allies were developing nuclear weapons. The program was accelerated in '45 after the blatantly unnecessary warcrimes that were the nuclear bombings of Japan. The decision to use the bomb as well as Truman's increasingly arrogant and soon to be hostile rhetoric was blatant intimidation towards the Soviets from what was to return to being a hostile power after the war. The attempts and desire to overthrow the USSR essentially never ended. After the course Truman embarked on, they became essential.

  13. #133
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    damn so stalin told truman to nuke the japanese? that's wild

  14. #134
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    makes sense though, think of how many soviet lives were saved

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    makes sense though, think of how many soviet lives were saved
    Zakuska and Babushkas for everyone in the Kuril Islands without all the loss of life? What a deal.

  16. #136
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    wouldn't be the first war crime he advocated for

    or the last

  17. #137
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    The first Soviet leader to not brutally suppress political opposition was bad actually is a take I hadn't heard outside of a hardline Stalinist before.

  18. #138
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    But surprisingly on brand for Spicy

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athas View Post
    The first Soviet leader to not brutally suppress political opposition was bad actually is a take I hadn't heard outside of a hardline Stalinist before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krandor View Post
    But surprisingly on brand for Spicy
    I really dislike Ben Stein, but fuck is his "W~-~o~-~w" often fitting.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian girls View Post
    the fairest assessment. he was not blame for the rotting imperial edifice and mass of economic and social contradictions that the USSR had become, seething with unrest among both the urban intelligentsia and Russian nationalists, as well as all ethnic minorities at the reaches of empire. the transition from communism was painful, it was always going to be painful, but far less so than it could have been as Gorbachev declined to intervene militarily in the Warsaw Pact nations (as the Soviets had in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968) when they began tearing down one communist regime after another. perhaps more critically, though he did not desire it he was willing to allow the dissolution of the USSR, unlike the communist hardliners who did their best to push the country into civil war.

    Russia's post-dissolution history was not to be a happy one, but Gorbachev did what few others in history have ever done and oversaw the collapse of a major empire without major bloodshed. za nashu druzjbu old chap.
    To our friendship?

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