Pope John II - News & afew words.

[Darkvalentine]

if you have nothing good to say about the Pope then don't post your fucking opinion in this thread

i agree sad to see him go

[avgolf5]

umm you are relating the pope to a dictator? you are a moron and thats just dumb as hell. is he killing his own people and trying to become rich? no he didnt at all they are in no way related and if someone you were close to died and i came up and said something like good thing they werent nice to (insert race or gender or preference here) so they should be dead thank god, you would be mad and say that they were really a good person. so dont come in and say something you know you shouldnt

[Sekkite]

Now I'm not Catholic, but I do agree it is very sad that he died.

On a side note, I don't see why this was posted on here. It was bound to attract negative comments and start drama, and it did.

[Totien]

This thread is about reverance and mourning. A great man has passed on. If you aren't posting to pay your respects, go to hell. please, if you don't have anything posative to say, or you're here only to flame or bitch at other people, just don't bother looking at the thread agian. If anything I'm an anarchist, but that doesn't change the fact that i have respect for those who beleive other things.

[Hitokiri]

I am sad when anyone dies, but Joft is right a lot of poor people die every day and 99.9999999% of the populace can't to manage to care.

And whatever can be said about John Paul II he is/was a virulent homophobe and quite the misogynist. Sorry, but I will not call someone a "great man" if he spends his life spreading intolerance, ignorance, and bigotry.

Note: This post isn't meant to offend anyone or start some type of heated flame-war debate, please don't take it that way.

It's not really the fact that he died that is so sad, it is really what he meant to so many people. There are over 1 billion Catholics around the world that followed this one man and believe that he is the absolute authority on moral and religious issues. Whether or not you believed in the Pope, or believe in 1 billion people listening to and following one man, or accept any Catholic beliefs at all is not what I am debating here. It is the fact that there are 1 billion people that who believe in this one man. The 25,000 people that die everyday (may they rest in peace), never had this kind of leadership, so of course people would care about his death more than any other person. It's not that those people don't matter, but it is the fact that none of them made as big an impact as Pope John Paul II did, both religiously and politically.

I know there are many people that disagree with the Pope and I am not posting to try and change anyone's mind on anything, but I the Pope was not a homophobe or a misogynist, and he was far from being intolerant, ignorant, and a bigot, much less did he spend his life "spreading" any of that.

I know that many people, even some Catholics disagree with the Popes highly conservative ideas, but nothing he ever said or wrote about was something that he simply thought about for a few minutes, hours, or even just a few days. Everything he talked about came from weeks, months, and perhaps even years of thought with (on a religious note) the help of God (as Catholics believe). Most of his stances on the issues of homosexuality and ordaining women were not new either, it was for the most part just upholding certain Church doctrines that have been around for over a thousand years.

To call him a misogynist is something that I have a hard time thinking anyone except those that truly hated him could say. He didn't hate women, he didn't hate ANYONE. Just because he said that women couldn't be ordained and that it wasn't up for debate didn't mean that he hated women. It's not like women were being ordained and then he suddenly became Pope and BOOM no more women in any ministry whatsoever. It is as I said before, he decided to uphold doctrines of the Church that have been around for a long time. Now, whether the Catholic Church is right in saying women cannot be ordained and/or whether the Catholic Church should "become more modernized" and allow the ordaining of women now, is a totally different debate.

He also wasn't a "homophobe." This issue of homosexuality again goes back to doctrines of the Catholic Church, he didn't decree that homosexuality was a sin, he only upheld it. He didn't hate homosexuals either, as I said before, he doesn't hate anyone. He simply doesn't agree with that decision that some people make and his side in that issue comes purely from how he was brought up and what he was taught as a Catholic.

He certainly wasn't intolerant, he believed in the faith of everyone, not their religion. He didn't spend his life trying to convert people to Catholicism, he tried to strengthen the faith that people had in their own religion. One of his most notable achievements was through his denouncement of antisemitism and his call for peace with the Jewish community. Pope John Paul was also the first Pope who went through a big deal to ask for the forgiveness of the sins of the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years.

Even if you don't want to call the Pope a "great man," don't say it's because he spent "his life spreading intolerance, ignorance, and bigotry." Maybe you don't agree with him, but to make such a generalization and calling him a homophobe and a misogynist are all fallacies that many people, even, as you've seen, non-Catholics could and would easily argue against.


I myself am very saddened by the passing of the Pope. I feel he was a great man that had a profound impact on our world, even with religion aside. May his soul rest in peace.

[joft]

Karol Wojtyla was an actor, a playwrite, an outdoorsman, and a beloved almost-political leader in Poland during a very hard time for them (during and after Nazi rule)

I learned all of that today. You can find things about anyone to respect them for, if you look

edit: also, he traveled more than every single other pope in history, combined. he met face to face with the man who tried to assassinate him to forgive him. just more stuff I learned today (but not on tv)

[Crovus]

That is right. Back in the 80's, a man tried to assasinate the pope. He actually went to the prison the man was being held at, and forgave him. He truly forgave him. How many of us can say we'd to the same thing? Honestly. He didn't go into that man's presence and say "you tried to kill me, may god have mercy on your sould". His faith in humanity was so strong that that he believed that people can truly be sorry for what they did, if given the second chance. Hitokiri brought up very good points. Very very good points at that. I am not Catholic, nor do I agree with some of the Catholic beliefs. He may have not been a great man to most, but religion aside... He earned my respect. I only hope that the next Pope will continue John Paul II's legacy

[Darkvalentine]

That is right. Back in the 80's, a man tried to assasinate the pope. He actually went to the prison the man was being held at, and forgave him. He truly forgave him. How many of us can say we'd to the same thing? Honestly. He didn't go into that man's presence and say "you tried to kill me, may god have mercy on your sould". His faith in humanity was so strong that that he believed that people can truly be sorry for what they did, if given the second chance. Hitokiri brought up very good points. Very very good points at that. I am not Catholic, nor do I agree with some of the Catholic beliefs. He may have not been a great man to most, but religion aside... He earned my respect. I only hope that the next Pope will continue John Paul II's legacy

Thats true Cro its hard to forgive a guy that just shot u.But he did it.
Pope a Strong man may he rest in peace.

[Romero]

All in all, I am glad he passed. Not in the negative sense, before you flame away, it isn't a knock on him. The poor man has been a pile of lifeless meat for so long. I felt terrible every time I saw him on TV. After his whole long life, strokes etc. it took such a physical beating on him. To have him paraded around as the pinnacle of the Catholic religion for the whole world to see. It took major will for him to keep on going.

I am not religious man at all. But the respect is there. I think he is much better off now. And if Christians are correct, he has one hell of an afterlife in store for him.

[Arwyn]

thanks to everyone that posted and paid respects. ^^

as for everyone else.../sigh. i wont even bother. the catholic church and catholics did not see the Pope as an authority figure, he's not a dictator, etc. he's someone that was appointed to help the rest of us become closer to God. he's a messenger...a disciple...

this thread was posted to inform us, etc. not to start a flame war. who would have thought people would be sooo disrespectful. havent you guys all learned to not comment on peoples religion? many of you straight up disrespected (in many ways) all those that are catholics.

i am thankful to the pope for all that he has tried and done. and i am thankful that he has finally passed to a better place.

[Sargeras]

Well Pope John Paul II died

Salute to him.

[Septimus]

He also wasn't a "homophobe." This issue of homosexuality again goes back to doctrines of the Catholic Church, he didn't decree that homosexuality was a sin, he only upheld it. He didn't hate homosexuals either, as I said before, he doesn't hate anyone. He simply doesn't agree with that decision that some people make and his side in that issue comes purely from how he was brought up and what he was taught as a Catholic.

In 1986 a Papal letter was issued that among other things stated that gays and lesbians are "disordered," "self-indulgent", and "threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people."

Sounds slightly homophobic to me.

[Demetrick]

He also wasn't a "homophobe." This issue of homosexuality again goes back to doctrines of the Catholic Church, he didn't decree that homosexuality was a sin, he only upheld it. He didn't hate homosexuals either, as I said before, he doesn't hate anyone. He simply doesn't agree with that decision that some people make and his side in that issue comes purely from how he was brought up and what he was taught as a Catholic.

In 1986 a Papal letter was issued that among other things stated that gays and lesbians are "disordered," "self-indulgent", and "threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people."

Sounds slightly homophobic to me.

even so, do you believe that? i don't, same thing applies when any leader speaks, do you really thing that is "his" decision or was he pressured to make a statement? Regardless he has to stand by it, and support it, since thats his job but it doesn't necessarily mean thats what he really believes is right. After all, he's trying to appease the masses.

I think Hitokiri summed up a lot of good things.

All religion aside, the man has an incredible life story, growing up in communist poland, learning latin and practicing religion in hiding. having his university shut down by the Nazi's. leading an entire life of abstinence. etc etc. while we sit at our PC's playing video games. You gotta give the man some respect at least for that.

[Septimus]

even so, do you believe that? i don't, same thing applies when any leader speaks, do you really thing that is "his" decision or was he pressured to make a statement? Regardless he has to stand by it, and support it, since thats his job but it doesn't necessarily mean thats what he really believes is right. After all, he's trying to appease the masses.

Sorry, but when people start declaring my people as this and that, I get a little sensitive. It does not matter if he believed it or not, whether he was pressured to release that letter or not- it can't be un-said and it was under his arch-conservative watch. Under his reign as Pope many gay-friendly Bishops were removed, Dignity (a pro-gay Catholic group) was banned from meeting on Church properties.

I guess it goes back to that one scripture, "love thy neighbor unless he is different, then thou can demonize him to thy heart's content."

[Demetrick]

Sorry, but when people start declaring my people as this and that, I get a little sensitive. It does not matter if he believed it or not, whether he was pressured to release that letter or not- it can't be un-said and it was under his arch-conservative watch. Under his reign as Pope many gay-friendly Bishops were removed, Dignity (a pro-gay Catholic group) was banned from meeting on Church properties.

I guess it goes back to that one scripture, "love thy neighbor unless he is different, then thou can demonize him to thy heart's content."

when people start declaing my people as this or that, I tend not to believe them and tend to believe in things that make sense to me, like evolution, which I've sworn myself to. my only defense to him, and what i respect, is the hardships of his life.

I mean, we've all seem the Indiana Jones movies' and seen how wick'd d'em nazi's were.

[ZeroM]

CNN News Pope John Paul II In The Vatakin (Can't spell and I'm lazy because I just woke up)... Poor guy he looks so peaceful. I wonder how you get to be Pope and who the next one will be. *sigh* Makes me want to cry really ... Ok well... Goodbye Pope John Paul the Second we will miss you.

[Demetrick]

CNN News Pope John Paul II In The Vatakin (Can't spell and I'm lazy because I just woke up)... Poor guy he looks so peaceful. I wonder how you get to be Pope and who the next one will be. *sigh* Makes me want to cry really ... Ok well... Goodbye Pope John Paul the Second we will miss you.

I heard they want a really old guy because they don't want another, 'long time onry' Pope. Most Pope's terms are 5-8 years. I think, the cardinals vote then they do something with some kind of died paper that makes white ash when their done.

[Hitokiri]

Sorry, but when people start declaring my people as this and that, I get a little sensitive. It does not matter if he believed it or not, whether he was pressured to release that letter or not- it can't be un-said and it was under his arch-conservative watch. Under his reign as Pope many gay-friendly Bishops were removed, Dignity (a pro-gay Catholic group) was banned from meeting on Church properties.

I guess it goes back to that one scripture, "love thy neighbor unless he is different, then thou can demonize him to thy heart's content."

The pope never has and never will have something against homosexual people. The Pope puts things in the context of calling them self-indulgent and disordered in reference to the act and choice of homosexuality. What has been "demonized" here is not the person, but the sin. It's not strictly what he thinks of it either (although, yes, it is what he believes, he doesn't try to "appease the masses"), his beliefs are deeply rooted in traditional Catholic doctrine wich has held for the past 2 millenia that homosexuality is a sin. To call him a "homophobe" seems to be going too far since it is as if you are pointing a finger at him and accusing him of believing in and support a principle that that he came up with on his own and is forcing this belief on other people simply because he is the Pope, which I have stated is not the case at all.

Shutting out Pro-gay organizations and removing gay bishops wasn't something against the people, again. The Pope does what he believes will best protect the traditions and doctrines of the Church.

It really goes back to, "Don't hate the person, hate the sin." And I believe that if groups of homosexuals came to the Pope claiming that he hates them for being homosexual, he would respond with a more thorough version of that quote.

Calling the Pope "homophobic" just puts a negative shadow over what he did in his position, when everything that he did was in good faith, not with hatred or disgust.

[Warudo Ecksu]

I agree entirely with what Hitokiri is trying to say.

Seriously, I do think the Pope was a great man. He accomplished a lot in his life against all odds. I can't believe people are actually bashing him at a time like this.

[Arwyn]

those that seem to comment on the Pope obviously do not seem to know much about the Pope and the Catholic ways. Or they would understand. They are merely reciting either what they heard from other people, joining the negative crowd, or...are lacking in information and making a judgement. I feel that the latter is fine. If you do not know much about the religion or the Pope and you know that he does something you don't like, then its perfectly fine to express your emotions. i just dont see why we gotta do it here, in a thread that was meant to honor him. the man just passed away. please just have some decency before you go bashing him. thank you ahead of time (i hope)