Originally Posted by
Septimus
Originally Posted by
Hitokiri
The pope never has and never will have something against homosexual people. The Pope puts things in the context of calling them self-indulgent and disordered in reference to the act and choice of homosexuality. What has been "demonized" here is not the person, but the sin. It's not strictly what he thinks of it either (although, yes, it is what he believes, he doesn't try to "appease the masses"), his beliefs are deeply rooted in traditional Catholic doctrine wich has held for the past 2 millenia that homosexuality is a sin. To call him a "homophobe" seems to be going too far since it is as if you are pointing a finger at him and accusing him of believing in and support a principle that that he came up with on his own and is forcing this belief on other people simply because he is the Pope, which I have stated is not the case at all.
Shutting out Pro-gay organizations and removing gay bishops wasn't something against the people, again. The Pope does what he believes will best protect the traditions and doctrines of the Church.
It really goes back to, "Don't hate the person, hate the sin." And I believe that if groups of homosexuals came to the Pope claiming that he hates them for being homosexual, he would respond with a more thorough version of that quote.
Calling the Pope "homophobic" just puts a negative shadow over what he did in his position, when everything that he did was in good faith, not with hatred or disgust.
Wow... I am not even sure were to begin with that. I guess the gist of your argument is that it is fine to marginalize a group of individuals as long as you have a proud tradition of intolerance to back it up?
Let's get this clear, first off, people do not chose to be homosexual, you are either attracted to people of the same sex or you are not. The only choice is whether to stand up against an often hostile world or to let people beat you down into a self-loathing puddle of jelly with their prejudice and dogma. Saying that the "sin" of homosexuality is different from homosexuals is utter bull-toot- homosexuals can not stop being gay any more than I can stop being white by getting a deep tan and dying my hair dark. Anyone who tells you otherwise is at best misguided.
Tradition is not a reason to blindly continue following a doctrine, people who refuse to accept the present or prepare for the future will always be left in the past. Catholic tradition also stated that the world is flat and at the center of the universe. Just because something is a tradition, or even that a majority of people believe it, does not mean that is it correct, right, just, or true. The majority of Americans thought that segregation was fine during the 1950's, fortunately now the majority of the populace look at it with the abhorrence that it deserves. No, John Paul II didn't invent the anti-gay traditions in the Catholic Church, but he agreed with them, supported them, and urged his followers to do the same.
Let me end it with this thought, it's easy to justify intolerance, just as long as you aren't on the outside looking in.
Well, the "gist" of my argument has nothing to do with the group of individuals at all. I myself have nothing against homosexual people and I think that the Pope would feel the same. The discrepancy seems to be in the fact that you define homosexuality as a natural attraction, whereas I (I'm sure I'm not the only one either) would view homosexuality as a choice or a preference. I would think that from that point of view you could differentiate between the person and homosexuality. The fact that Catholic doctrine defines homosexuality as a "sin" I would say is based on this difference, which is what the Pope and traditional Catholicism try to teach, which is why homosexuality in those terms would be equivocated to another sin and not something as natural as you being white.
I think what mainly keeps the Catholic church from changing from traditional views on this subject is that homosexuality, along with other subjects such as masturbation, have been typically defined to be "unnatural" by how God made the Universe and made men and women to mate and multiply. The Church doesn't argue either of these topics from the stance that either might be "natural" because if they did admit that, there would be no basis for calling it a "sin." So, if someone really wants to argue with the Church (mind you, not ME) about adjusting to modern views, then you would have to convince the Pope and probably every Cardinal in Rome that homosexuality and masturbation are "naturally" occurring human sexuality, not preferences of a self-indulgent mind. Good luck with that one....
I'm not saying you're wrong, nor am I trying to convince you to change what you think. The only issue that I'm arguing here has to do with your first post and your negative accusations of the Pope that I strongly believe were false generalizations coming from anger over him not accepting something you believe in.
I believe the Pope was a holy man.
I am Catholic. I don't expect you to believe or agree with everything I say. I don't even expect every Catholic to agree with the Pope anymore and I can see why people may see it that way, but that's the difference between where their faith lies and where mine lies. None of that means that I can't see the other side of the argument and accept it.
This isn't even directed solely at you Septimus, I would hope that everyone would be willing to take a second and think of the issue from another person's shoes and maybe see the other side of the issue even if you don't agree with it. Even if you didn't like what the Pope taught and severely disagreed with what he advocated, I would hope you could at least see enough of his side of the issue to realize that he doesn't advocate in hatred, he's not here to destroy people's way of life, he is just doing what he feels is best. He did a lot of amazing things that no other Pope ever did and that most people on earth wouldn't do (such as forgiving and praying with the man that tried to assassinate him or praying for the sins of the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years be forgiven). If you took the time to maybe look at the fact that everything he did, he did for the people he led and for the goodness of everyone around him, right or wrong, that you may see he at least deserves some respect because it's not easy to carry out the job he had. He's only human and maybe he was a little stubborn on some issues, but who isn't? I doubt there is a single issue on this planet that you could find that EVERYONE agrees on.
I can't say I was surprised at the first response post when I started reading this topic. I know there are people out there that hated the Pope, I would have been shocked even more if someone told me that there
wasn't a person on earth who hated the Pope. I think it's a sad thing, but the range of human thought and belief is just that big. I can even see where their coming from (to a degree), many people severely disagree with Pope and everything he stands for and the only emotion that they can pinpoint on that total opposition is hate, I think it's the same for all types of disagreements. It's just too bad. No one is perfect.
I guess all I'm saying in SO many words is that I wish everyone could simply give at least a little respect to the man instead of "oh I'm sorry he died... (that damned blah blah blah)." Respect doesn't require you to change your views, be part of his religion, or to agree with him, it's just a common courtesy to someone who filled a difficult role and led 1 million people who deeply believed in him.
Respect the man, you don't have to accept the ideals.
Don't hate the person, hate the sin.
Don't hate the playa, hate the game. 8)
However you want to put it, it doesn't matter. I just hope you
at least can see where I, the Pope, and the many other people who revered him are coming from, whether you agree with it or not.
(Sorry for the preaching, sorry for the (possible) repetitiveness. I have no quarrel with you Sept, you don't need to put the sarcasm in your posts, I'm not here to fight and I don't think this needs to be a heated debate.)
Oh, just one more thing (as if I haven't said enough already, I know, I'm sorry), I don't think swearing at people or accusing people of being dumbasses for negativity or expressing their view is an appropriate way to silence them, if you don't like what they're saying, don't read it. The only thing that doesn't deserve to be on this board (in my opinion) is ignorant negativity (such as that first reply) and outbursts of emotion that turn into attacks (such as you Cloude, sorry to say). Septimus has a right to express his views and explain them, it's not like he made a stupid exclamation like the first reply (whether or not he agrees with that first reply doesn't matter either, he's not being a jerk about it or anything).