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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    The pope never has and never will have something against homosexual people. The Pope puts things in the context of calling them self-indulgent and disordered in reference to the act and choice of homosexuality. What has been "demonized" here is not the person, but the sin. It's not strictly what he thinks of it either (although, yes, it is what he believes, he doesn't try to "appease the masses"), his beliefs are deeply rooted in traditional Catholic doctrine wich has held for the past 2 millenia that homosexuality is a sin. To call him a "homophobe" seems to be going too far since it is as if you are pointing a finger at him and accusing him of believing in and support a principle that that he came up with on his own and is forcing this belief on other people simply because he is the Pope, which I have stated is not the case at all.

    Shutting out Pro-gay organizations and removing gay bishops wasn't something against the people, again. The Pope does what he believes will best protect the traditions and doctrines of the Church.

    It really goes back to, "Don't hate the person, hate the sin." And I believe that if groups of homosexuals came to the Pope claiming that he hates them for being homosexual, he would respond with a more thorough version of that quote.

    Calling the Pope "homophobic" just puts a negative shadow over what he did in his position, when everything that he did was in good faith, not with hatred or disgust.
    Wow... I am not even sure were to begin with that. I guess the gist of your argument is that it is fine to marginalize a group of individuals as long as you have a proud tradition of intolerance to back it up?

    Let's get this clear, first off, people do not chose to be homosexual, you are either attracted to people of the same sex or you are not. The only choice is whether to stand up against an often hostile world or to let people beat you down into a self-loathing puddle of jelly with their prejudice and dogma. Saying that the "sin" of homosexuality is different from homosexuals is utter bull-toot- homosexuals can not stop being gay any more than I can stop being white by getting a deep tan and dying my hair dark. Anyone who tells you otherwise is at best misguided.

    Tradition is not a reason to blindly continue following a doctrine, people who refuse to accept the present or prepare for the future will always be left in the past. Catholic tradition also stated that the world is flat and at the center of the universe. Just because something is a tradition, or even that a majority of people believe it, does not mean that is it correct, right, just, or true. The majority of Americans thought that segregation was fine during the 1950's, fortunately now the majority of the populace look at it with the abhorrence that it deserves. No, John Paul II didn't invent the anti-gay traditions in the Catholic Church, but he agreed with them, supported them, and urged his followers to do the same.

    Let me end it with this thought, it's easy to justify intolerance, just as long as you aren't on the outside looking in.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Septimus
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    The pope never has and never will have something against homosexual people. The Pope puts things in the context of calling them self-indulgent and disordered in reference to the act and choice of homosexuality. What has been "demonized" here is not the person, but the sin. It's not strictly what he thinks of it either (although, yes, it is what he believes, he doesn't try to "appease the masses"), his beliefs are deeply rooted in traditional Catholic doctrine wich has held for the past 2 millenia that homosexuality is a sin. To call him a "homophobe" seems to be going too far since it is as if you are pointing a finger at him and accusing him of believing in and support a principle that that he came up with on his own and is forcing this belief on other people simply because he is the Pope, which I have stated is not the case at all.

    Shutting out Pro-gay organizations and removing gay bishops wasn't something against the people, again. The Pope does what he believes will best protect the traditions and doctrines of the Church.

    It really goes back to, "Don't hate the person, hate the sin." And I believe that if groups of homosexuals came to the Pope claiming that he hates them for being homosexual, he would respond with a more thorough version of that quote.

    Calling the Pope "homophobic" just puts a negative shadow over what he did in his position, when everything that he did was in good faith, not with hatred or disgust.
    Wow... I am not even sure were to begin with that. I guess the gist of your argument is that it is fine to marginalize a group of individuals as long as you have a proud tradition of intolerance to back it up?

    Let's get this clear, first off, people do not chose to be homosexual, you are either attracted to people of the same sex or you are not. The only choice is whether to stand up against an often hostile world or to let people beat you down into a self-loathing puddle of jelly with their prejudice and dogma. Saying that the "sin" of homosexuality is different from homosexuals is utter bull-toot- homosexuals can not stop being gay any more than I can stop being white by getting a deep tan and dying my hair dark. Anyone who tells you otherwise is at best misguided.

    Tradition is not a reason to blindly continue following a doctrine, people who refuse to accept the present or prepare for the future will always be left in the past. Catholic tradition also stated that the world is flat and at the center of the universe. Just because something is a tradition, or even that a majority of people believe it, does not mean that is it correct, right, just, or true. The majority of Americans thought that segregation was fine during the 1950's, fortunately now the majority of the populace look at it with the abhorrence that it deserves. No, John Paul II didn't invent the anti-gay traditions in the Catholic Church, but he agreed with them, supported them, and urged his followers to do the same.

    Let me end it with this thought, it's easy to justify intolerance, just as long as you aren't on the outside looking in.
    Septimus for the win!

  3. #43

    Damn, after reading Hito's post this afternoon I didn't possibly think you could make such a good come-back.

  4. #44

    Game, Set, Match.

  5. #45
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    i don't like to say this but Septimus shut the fuck up about ur gay shit on this thread or post your comments on another thread. this thread is about paying respects for the Pope, if u don't have any respect to pay for the Pope, then shut up already

  6. #46

    Quote Originally Posted by Septimus
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    The pope never has and never will have something against homosexual people. The Pope puts things in the context of calling them self-indulgent and disordered in reference to the act and choice of homosexuality. What has been "demonized" here is not the person, but the sin. It's not strictly what he thinks of it either (although, yes, it is what he believes, he doesn't try to "appease the masses"), his beliefs are deeply rooted in traditional Catholic doctrine wich has held for the past 2 millenia that homosexuality is a sin. To call him a "homophobe" seems to be going too far since it is as if you are pointing a finger at him and accusing him of believing in and support a principle that that he came up with on his own and is forcing this belief on other people simply because he is the Pope, which I have stated is not the case at all.

    Shutting out Pro-gay organizations and removing gay bishops wasn't something against the people, again. The Pope does what he believes will best protect the traditions and doctrines of the Church.

    It really goes back to, "Don't hate the person, hate the sin." And I believe that if groups of homosexuals came to the Pope claiming that he hates them for being homosexual, he would respond with a more thorough version of that quote.

    Calling the Pope "homophobic" just puts a negative shadow over what he did in his position, when everything that he did was in good faith, not with hatred or disgust.
    Wow... I am not even sure were to begin with that. I guess the gist of your argument is that it is fine to marginalize a group of individuals as long as you have a proud tradition of intolerance to back it up?

    Let's get this clear, first off, people do not chose to be homosexual, you are either attracted to people of the same sex or you are not. The only choice is whether to stand up against an often hostile world or to let people beat you down into a self-loathing puddle of jelly with their prejudice and dogma. Saying that the "sin" of homosexuality is different from homosexuals is utter bull-toot- homosexuals can not stop being gay any more than I can stop being white by getting a deep tan and dying my hair dark. Anyone who tells you otherwise is at best misguided.

    Tradition is not a reason to blindly continue following a doctrine, people who refuse to accept the present or prepare for the future will always be left in the past. Catholic tradition also stated that the world is flat and at the center of the universe. Just because something is a tradition, or even that a majority of people believe it, does not mean that is it correct, right, just, or true. The majority of Americans thought that segregation was fine during the 1950's, fortunately now the majority of the populace look at it with the abhorrence that it deserves. No, John Paul II didn't invent the anti-gay traditions in the Catholic Church, but he agreed with them, supported them, and urged his followers to do the same.

    Let me end it with this thought, it's easy to justify intolerance, just as long as you aren't on the outside looking in.
    Well, the "gist" of my argument has nothing to do with the group of individuals at all. I myself have nothing against homosexual people and I think that the Pope would feel the same. The discrepancy seems to be in the fact that you define homosexuality as a natural attraction, whereas I (I'm sure I'm not the only one either) would view homosexuality as a choice or a preference. I would think that from that point of view you could differentiate between the person and homosexuality. The fact that Catholic doctrine defines homosexuality as a "sin" I would say is based on this difference, which is what the Pope and traditional Catholicism try to teach, which is why homosexuality in those terms would be equivocated to another sin and not something as natural as you being white.

    I think what mainly keeps the Catholic church from changing from traditional views on this subject is that homosexuality, along with other subjects such as masturbation, have been typically defined to be "unnatural" by how God made the Universe and made men and women to mate and multiply. The Church doesn't argue either of these topics from the stance that either might be "natural" because if they did admit that, there would be no basis for calling it a "sin." So, if someone really wants to argue with the Church (mind you, not ME) about adjusting to modern views, then you would have to convince the Pope and probably every Cardinal in Rome that homosexuality and masturbation are "naturally" occurring human sexuality, not preferences of a self-indulgent mind. Good luck with that one....

    I'm not saying you're wrong, nor am I trying to convince you to change what you think. The only issue that I'm arguing here has to do with your first post and your negative accusations of the Pope that I strongly believe were false generalizations coming from anger over him not accepting something you believe in.

    I believe the Pope was a holy man. I am Catholic. I don't expect you to believe or agree with everything I say. I don't even expect every Catholic to agree with the Pope anymore and I can see why people may see it that way, but that's the difference between where their faith lies and where mine lies. None of that means that I can't see the other side of the argument and accept it.

    This isn't even directed solely at you Septimus, I would hope that everyone would be willing to take a second and think of the issue from another person's shoes and maybe see the other side of the issue even if you don't agree with it. Even if you didn't like what the Pope taught and severely disagreed with what he advocated, I would hope you could at least see enough of his side of the issue to realize that he doesn't advocate in hatred, he's not here to destroy people's way of life, he is just doing what he feels is best. He did a lot of amazing things that no other Pope ever did and that most people on earth wouldn't do (such as forgiving and praying with the man that tried to assassinate him or praying for the sins of the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years be forgiven). If you took the time to maybe look at the fact that everything he did, he did for the people he led and for the goodness of everyone around him, right or wrong, that you may see he at least deserves some respect because it's not easy to carry out the job he had. He's only human and maybe he was a little stubborn on some issues, but who isn't? I doubt there is a single issue on this planet that you could find that EVERYONE agrees on.

    I can't say I was surprised at the first response post when I started reading this topic. I know there are people out there that hated the Pope, I would have been shocked even more if someone told me that there wasn't a person on earth who hated the Pope. I think it's a sad thing, but the range of human thought and belief is just that big. I can even see where their coming from (to a degree), many people severely disagree with Pope and everything he stands for and the only emotion that they can pinpoint on that total opposition is hate, I think it's the same for all types of disagreements. It's just too bad. No one is perfect.

    I guess all I'm saying in SO many words is that I wish everyone could simply give at least a little respect to the man instead of "oh I'm sorry he died... (that damned blah blah blah)." Respect doesn't require you to change your views, be part of his religion, or to agree with him, it's just a common courtesy to someone who filled a difficult role and led 1 million people who deeply believed in him.

    Respect the man, you don't have to accept the ideals.

    Don't hate the person, hate the sin.

    Don't hate the playa, hate the game. 8)

    However you want to put it, it doesn't matter. I just hope you at least can see where I, the Pope, and the many other people who revered him are coming from, whether you agree with it or not.

    (Sorry for the preaching, sorry for the (possible) repetitiveness. I have no quarrel with you Sept, you don't need to put the sarcasm in your posts, I'm not here to fight and I don't think this needs to be a heated debate.)


    Oh, just one more thing (as if I haven't said enough already, I know, I'm sorry), I don't think swearing at people or accusing people of being dumbasses for negativity or expressing their view is an appropriate way to silence them, if you don't like what they're saying, don't read it. The only thing that doesn't deserve to be on this board (in my opinion) is ignorant negativity (such as that first reply) and outbursts of emotion that turn into attacks (such as you Cloude, sorry to say). Septimus has a right to express his views and explain them, it's not like he made a stupid exclamation like the first reply (whether or not he agrees with that first reply doesn't matter either, he's not being a jerk about it or anything).

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloude
    i don't like to say this but Septimus shut the fuck up about ur gay shit on this thread or post your comments on another thread. this thread is about paying respects for the Pope, if u don't have any respect to pay for the Pope, then shut up already
    The pope would be proud of you.

  8. #48
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    It was my Grandfathers 2nd anniversary since his death when the pope died.

    I think a lot of you are selfish and stuck up for trying to blast a dying man.

    If you even bothered to read the name of the thread you would noticed it said "& afew words" which usually means paying your respects. But in this case everyone thought it would be a great time to express your unwanted opinions in a thread made for the people who followed and respected the man.

    Fair enough everybody has a opinion.... but everyone is born with common sense also. A lot of you have really offended me with your lack of respect/feelings and common sense.

    Leave this page to the believers and the people who respected him.

    Lujan

    (making another thread for you guys to slam beliefs since this is not the ground to play word wars)

  9. #49

    I don't quite understand why many people mourn for his death. He is after all, the Pope. I am sure he is resting in peace in heaven as we speak. I mean, if anyone can make it to heaven after death, I would bet my money on the pope. I for one believe that he has lived a long and meaningful life, and that being ill for so long, bringing an end to his suffering is not necessarily a bad thing.

  10. #50
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    Well, the "gist" of my argument has nothing to do with the group of individuals at all. I myself have nothing against homosexual people and I think that the Pope would feel the same. The discrepancy seems to be in the fact that you define homosexuality as a natural attraction, whereas I (I'm sure I'm not the only one either) would view homosexuality as a choice or a preference. I would think that from that point of view you could differentiate between the person and homosexuality. The fact that Catholic doctrine defines homosexuality as a "sin" I would say is based on this difference, which is what the Pope and traditional Catholicism try to teach, which is why homosexuality in those terms would be equivocated to another sin and not something as natural as you being white.

    I'm literally speachless. Did you manipulate time and sent this post from 50 years ago, when people still believed homosexuals chose their sexuality? You vote Bush, don't you?

  11. #51
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    I think that the man Karol Wojtyla, if he was indeed an honorable man, would agree that only remembering someone for that which you agreed on them with would be doing them an injustice

    The Pope is infallible according to catholic doctrine, but I'm sure even he would agree that people should be able to disagree with him. That's free will, is it not?

  12. #52

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinryuu

    I'm literally speachless. Did you manipulate time and sent this post from 50 years ago, when people still believed homosexuals chose their sexuality? You vote Bush, don't you?
    ahah, you're probably correct Shinryuu

  13. #53

    Quote Originally Posted by "Shinryuu
    I'm literally speachless. Did you manipulate time and sent this post from 50 years ago, when people still believed homosexuals chose their sexuality? You vote Bush, don't you?
    If you're asking whether I believe in doctrines that have been the basis for my faith for the past 2000 years, yes I believe that homosexuality is a choice and I don't hold it against people. Just because I think differently than you and believe something you don't doesn't mean you need to make snide comments.

    As for the Bush thing, I don't mind saying that yes, I vote Bush. Me and the majority of America (apparently since he's still our President. Whether YOU like it or not is irrelevant). So, what's your point?

  14. #54
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    dammit. are you people that stupid? read what Sadler wrote. right after he rights that, people are turning this thread into a debate again. its not a debate thread and its not a "what you think about him and the catholic church" thread. its to pay your respects. if you dont have any respects for him, get the fuck out. seriously. thank you.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinryuu
    I'm literally speachless. Did you manipulate time and sent this post from 50 years ago, when people still believed homosexuals chose their sexuality? You vote Bush, don't you?
    If you're asking whether I believe in doctrines that have been the basis for my faith for the past 2000 years, yes I believe that homosexuality is a choice and I don't hold it against people. Just because I think differently than you and believe something you don't doesn't mean you need to make snide comments.

    As for the Bush thing, I don't mind saying that yes, I vote Bush. Me and the majority of America (apparently since he's still our President. Whether YOU like it or not is irrelevant). So, what's your point?

    when you wake up you need to open your eyes instead of keeping them closed all the time.

  16. #56

    Quote Originally Posted by bait
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinryuu
    I'm literally speachless. Did you manipulate time and sent this post from 50 years ago, when people still believed homosexuals chose their sexuality? You vote Bush, don't you?
    If you're asking whether I believe in doctrines that have been the basis for my faith for the past 2000 years, yes I believe that homosexuality is a choice and I don't hold it against people. Just because I think differently than you and believe something you don't doesn't mean you need to make snide comments.

    As for the Bush thing, I don't mind saying that yes, I vote Bush. Me and the majority of America (apparently since he's still our President. Whether YOU like it or not is irrelevant). So, what's your point?

    when you wake up you need to open your eyes instead of keeping them closed all the time.
    I actually wish Septimus would come back and respond, I really do, anything, I just want to see signs of someone who thinks and can talk like a civil human being. I have yet to hear an intellgent argument from the people who are so caught up in their "You vote Bush? you're stupid" 6th grade predjudice bullcrap that they can't take their head out of their asses for a sec to think that, hmmm, maybe people don't think like me, I am just 1 in 6 billion people on this planet, why do my views matter more than the next guys and why do I have to be right all the time?

    I hate to ruin the topic like this, but there's too much bullshit already. I thought that an intelligent conversation on the Pope would be ok here, but I see it's unwelcome (and there seems to be only one person who can carry an intelligent conversation here...).

    If you absolutely HAVE to attack this republican because it helps you sleep at night, fine, you can IM me at Tenken287 or PM me, I'm not intimidated by 6th graders. Just don't keep the bullshit here.

    Thanks! Have a super day! t('.'t)


    P.S. May the Pope rest in peace. He's DEFINITELY in a better place. >.>

  17. #57
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    umm hitokiri.

    people arent responding because they finally decided that this thread is not for debating. im guessing you didnt read Sadler's message, but he wrote that he started a new thread. Just for people like you to debate and such. whether you're for or against the Pope, debating in a thread like this is not what Sadler intended. so please...continue or wish to continue your debate on the other thread. thanks

  18. #58

    I'm not debating anymore. Septimus is the only one that was intelligent enough to offer something to debate and he stopped posting in this topic.

    I'm angry because people keep making stupid comments and making offensive and/or attacking other people for their ideals. Here are some examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloude
    i don't like to say this but Septimus shut the fuck up about ur gay shit....
    (negativity doesn't solve anything)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinryuu
    I'm literally speachless. Did you manipulate time and sent this post from 50 years ago, when people still believed homosexuals chose their sexuality? You vote Bush, don't you?
    (what does my vote have to do with any of this? I'm not attacking the liberals on this board)

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrick
    ahah, you're probably correct Shinryuu
    Quote Originally Posted by Arwynn
    ...get the fuck out...
    (I understand your anger, but you've said this before and I think it has been proven that people don't respond well to negativity such as this)

    Quote Originally Posted by bait
    when you wake up you need to open your eyes instead of keeping them closed all the time.
    (an uncreative and witty-one-liner-that-failed thing that proved nothing other than bait doesn't like my post for some reason [I'm assuming b/c he agrees with Shin that "I votes Bush, omg!".)


    I don't see how any of this solved a problem, proved anyone's point, made anyone happy, or convinced anyone else otherwise. Some of these posts were even made AFTER Lujan posted, I'm quite aware of the other topic, which is why I haven't brought up anything to defend the Pope anymore. I just posted in the same way the above people posted in a vain attempt to perhaps have them understand in their own language why stupid one liners (that try to be witty and fail) that attack another person just show they are more ignorant than the person they attack.

    Anyways, sorry for the trouble. I take back my offensive comments since it won't help anyways, no one is going to suddenly apologize for what they said, they're probably just happy they were able to provoke me down to their level.

    w/e

    I'm sorry.



    I still feel saddness that the Pope died. I did weep a little because I didn't get the chance to ever see him and I really didn't pay as much attention to his great achievements as I should have. I always just kept him in the back of my mind as another part of my faith that I accepted and listened to when I felt necessary, which was a mistake on my part. It's true what they say, "You never really know how valuable something is to you until it is gone." Even though the Pope is in heaven and he'll always be in our hearts (for those who look up to him anyways), it'll never be the same as when he was here doing his good works and I don't think that the Vatican will ever be able to provide someone as good natured, with all the good intentions that he had for the faithful that he led and the world. I think my faith is stronger simply from the memory of him and watching the recaps of his life all over the television. He will truly be missed.

  19. #59
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    finally. the Pope can rest in piece. Amen. ^^

    thanks septimus and everyone else who stopped replying to this thread. <3 <3

  20. #60

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    Quote Originally Posted by Septimus
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri
    The pope never has and never will have something against homosexual people. The Pope puts things in the context of calling them self-indulgent and disordered in reference to the act and choice of homosexuality. What has been "demonized" here is not the person, but the sin. It's not strictly what he thinks of it either (although, yes, it is what he believes, he doesn't try to "appease the masses"), his beliefs are deeply rooted in traditional Catholic doctrine wich has held for the past 2 millenia that homosexuality is a sin. To call him a "homophobe" seems to be going too far since it is as if you are pointing a finger at him and accusing him of believing in and support a principle that that he came up with on his own and is forcing this belief on other people simply because he is the Pope, which I have stated is not the case at all.

    Shutting out Pro-gay organizations and removing gay bishops wasn't something against the people, again. The Pope does what he believes will best protect the traditions and doctrines of the Church.

    It really goes back to, "Don't hate the person, hate the sin." And I believe that if groups of homosexuals came to the Pope claiming that he hates them for being homosexual, he would respond with a more thorough version of that quote.

    Calling the Pope "homophobic" just puts a negative shadow over what he did in his position, when everything that he did was in good faith, not with hatred or disgust.
    Wow... I am not even sure were to begin with that. I guess the gist of your argument is that it is fine to marginalize a group of individuals as long as you have a proud tradition of intolerance to back it up?

    Let's get this clear, first off, people do not chose to be homosexual, you are either attracted to people of the same sex or you are not. The only choice is whether to stand up against an often hostile world or to let people beat you down into a self-loathing puddle of jelly with their prejudice and dogma. Saying that the "sin" of homosexuality is different from homosexuals is utter bull-toot- homosexuals can not stop being gay any more than I can stop being white by getting a deep tan and dying my hair dark. Anyone who tells you otherwise is at best misguided.

    Tradition is not a reason to blindly continue following a doctrine, people who refuse to accept the present or prepare for the future will always be left in the past. Catholic tradition also stated that the world is flat and at the center of the universe. Just because something is a tradition, or even that a majority of people believe it, does not mean that is it correct, right, just, or true. The majority of Americans thought that segregation was fine during the 1950's, fortunately now the majority of the populace look at it with the abhorrence that it deserves. No, John Paul II didn't invent the anti-gay traditions in the Catholic Church, but he agreed with them, supported them, and urged his followers to do the same.

    Let me end it with this thought, it's easy to justify intolerance, just as long as you aren't on the outside looking in.
    Well, the "gist" of my argument has nothing to do with the group of individuals at all. I myself have nothing against homosexual people and I think that the Pope would feel the same. The discrepancy seems to be in the fact that you define homosexuality as a natural attraction, whereas I (I'm sure I'm not the only one either) would view homosexuality as a choice or a preference. I would think that from that point of view you could differentiate between the person and homosexuality. The fact that Catholic doctrine defines homosexuality as a "sin" I would say is based on this difference, which is what the Pope and traditional Catholicism try to teach, which is why homosexuality in those terms would be equivocated to another sin and not something as natural as you being white.

    I think what mainly keeps the Catholic church from changing from traditional views on this subject is that homosexuality, along with other subjects such as masturbation, have been typically defined to be "unnatural" by how God made the Universe and made men and women to mate and multiply. The Church doesn't argue either of these topics from the stance that either might be "natural" because if they did admit that, there would be no basis for calling it a "sin." So, if someone really wants to argue with the Church (mind you, not ME) about adjusting to modern views, then you would have to convince the Pope and probably every Cardinal in Rome that homosexuality and masturbation are "naturally" occurring human sexuality, not preferences of a self-indulgent mind. Good luck with that one....

    I'm not saying you're wrong, nor am I trying to convince you to change what you think. The only issue that I'm arguing here has to do with your first post and your negative accusations of the Pope that I strongly believe were false generalizations coming from anger over him not accepting something you believe in.

    I believe the Pope was a holy man. I am Catholic. I don't expect you to believe or agree with everything I say. I don't even expect every Catholic to agree with the Pope anymore and I can see why people may see it that way, but that's the difference between where their faith lies and where mine lies. None of that means that I can't see the other side of the argument and accept it.

    This isn't even directed solely at you Septimus, I would hope that everyone would be willing to take a second and think of the issue from another person's shoes and maybe see the other side of the issue even if you don't agree with it. Even if you didn't like what the Pope taught and severely disagreed with what he advocated, I would hope you could at least see enough of his side of the issue to realize that he doesn't advocate in hatred, he's not here to destroy people's way of life, he is just doing what he feels is best. He did a lot of amazing things that no other Pope ever did and that most people on earth wouldn't do (such as forgiving and praying with the man that tried to assassinate him or praying for the sins of the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years be forgiven). If you took the time to maybe look at the fact that everything he did, he did for the people he led and for the goodness of everyone around him, right or wrong, that you may see he at least deserves some respect because it's not easy to carry out the job he had. He's only human and maybe he was a little stubborn on some issues, but who isn't? I doubt there is a single issue on this planet that you could find that EVERYONE agrees on.

    I can't say I was surprised at the first response post when I started reading this topic. I know there are people out there that hated the Pope, I would have been shocked even more if someone told me that there wasn't a person on earth who hated the Pope. I think it's a sad thing, but the range of human thought and belief is just that big. I can even see where their coming from (to a degree), many people severely disagree with Pope and everything he stands for and the only emotion that they can pinpoint on that total opposition is hate, I think it's the same for all types of disagreements. It's just too bad. No one is perfect.

    I guess all I'm saying in SO many words is that I wish everyone could simply give at least a little respect to the man instead of "oh I'm sorry he died... (that damned blah blah blah)." Respect doesn't require you to change your views, be part of his religion, or to agree with him, it's just a common courtesy to someone who filled a difficult role and led 1 million people who deeply believed in him.

    Respect the man, you don't have to accept the ideals.

    Don't hate the person, hate the sin.

    Don't hate the playa, hate the game. 8)

    However you want to put it, it doesn't matter. I just hope you at least can see where I, the Pope, and the many other people who revered him are coming from, whether you agree with it or not.

    (Sorry for the preaching, sorry for the (possible) repetitiveness. I have no quarrel with you Sept, you don't need to put the sarcasm in your posts, I'm not here to fight and I don't think this needs to be a heated debate.)


    Oh, just one more thing (as if I haven't said enough already, I know, I'm sorry), I don't think swearing at people or accusing people of being dumbasses for negativity or expressing their view is an appropriate way to silence them, if you don't like what they're saying, don't read it. The only thing that doesn't deserve to be on this board (in my opinion) is ignorant negativity (such as that first reply) and outbursts of emotion that turn into attacks (such as you Cloude, sorry to say). Septimus has a right to express his views and explain them, it's not like he made a stupid exclamation like the first reply (whether or not he agrees with that first reply doesn't matter either, he's not being a jerk about it or anything).
    I am catholic and I liked this pope a lot. So 1st I want to say farewell to a good man. 2nd- I know it would seem as if the pope would accept homosexuality but seeing as it is against Catholocism I dont think he would accept it. I am not saying he would be like Get the hell out of our church you homosexual, I am just saying I don't he would be for it.

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