Team Up LSes and Hyper Mode Bug

[Quicklet]

I'll get straight to the point. First of all, KB SSJ mode is almost as much of a joke as its normal mode (basically just increased defense and it hits harder). Nevermind the fact that the teamup LS composed of probably 40+ people throughout the fight took over 2 hours to kill it. We've already heard of one KB fight on another server where SSJ mode didn't matter. The key point I'm addressing tonight is the fact that KB was being fought for a good hour and a half tonight, lost aggro because it killed so many people after it was in hyper mode, regenned from about 30% to 50%, and then was reclaimed by the same team up LS with hyper mode now off even though PG+Wayfarer was entitled to claim it, allowing the original LS to kill what would have otherwise been either an unkillable HNM for them, or a HNM that would've taken at least another hour or two to kill than it did by what equates to a bug in the game. It is tantamount to a faux win.

Now I'm sure all of you fine members of other NA LSes who joined in this monolithic effort to down KB and are reading this now will object, "How can you say we didn't win? We killed it!" Yes, you killed it in the same way an LS that steals a HNM at 50% can kill something they can't kill from 100%. You killed it in the same way that 50 people can kill Kirin by sheer zerg force. When you have over a certain number of people, it's almost impossible for all of them to be dead even though only a fraction of them may still be on the hate list. KB is designed to become much more difficult after 1 hour, and this team up clusterfuck of Japanese and NA players circumvented that by "losing" via allowing KB to go unclaimed and begin regenning, then reclaiming while the next LS in line was waiting for it to regen to 100% as general etiquette suggests. Nevermind that the next LS in line is practically another teamup LS. I dislike the concept of teamup LSes in general when it comes to easy HNMs, but that's not the point of this post.

There are two main points to this post.

First of all, KB's hyper mode needs to be adjusted in the following ways to make it matter more:
- Immunity to gravity after hyper mode sets in
- Immunity to bind after hyper mode sets in
- Meteor damage needs to be boosted higher (1500-2000 range at full power and less resists)
- Thunderbolt damage needs to be boosted higher (400-500 range at full power)

Second of all, any LS that makes hyper mode on a HNM wear off in this way (by losing all aggro from it, letting it partially regen, then reclaiming) can be seen as essentially forfeiting their right to continue fighting it to the next LS in line, and I would hope that HNMLSes see this as the only way to prevent future clusterfucks from happening; clusterfucks which clearly circumvent the entire point of having these hyper modes in the game. Any LS that objects to this should do like another LS tonight that (afaik) didn't team up, and killed an even harder HNM within not just the current time limit, but in about half that time (and coincidentally the amount of time I've suggested it be adjusted to).

Please opine upon these thoughts.

[Gregorio]

If there was no wipe, how was PG+Way 'entitled' to claim it?

[Elcura]

All the good shit happens when i'm sleeping...

[Janice]

I still don't get what is wrong with LS's teaming up to beat something. All any ls is basically a team. If two LS's agree to work together to beat something and come to an agreement on how to split the drops, I say good for them.

That's like saying 2 LS's teamed up to do dynamis. I guess they didn't really get to Xarcabard because they teamed up and therefore it doesn't count.


If people team up because alone they would be unable to beat it, and now they have beat it, seems pretty smart to me.

[berticus]

If there was no wipe, how was PG+Way 'entitled' to claim it?

basically the hyper mode thing has been put in the game to try to set a "time limit" for mobs. it's a very good balance tool now that PTs of 7 cant take kb aspid and nid despite being able to claim vs 30-100 NAs. it's supposed to be like in alien vs predator when the predators are losing and they just nuke the f*ck out of everything - i mean, it's supposed to cause a 100% zenmetsu. with aspid and nidhogg and fafnir it essentially does because you have to just sit there and take it, but with KB since it's marathonable the hyper mode is basically a non issue.. well, less of an impossible issue.

i think what he's trying to say is that -completely- losing aggro enough to the point that it has no hate list, thus reverting it to normal easy mode, is the same as escaping out, or wiping, or giving up claim because if you fail to kill in an hour the new patch has made it (poorly in KB's case) so that you -cant- win the fight.

i pretty much agree with this but i think it's the first time to have happened that almost everybody has seen so it's a huge mess of confusion. pg/way were saying they were gonna take it if it went yellow and beckes said "heito kiredesoku turi yane tugi no daisudekatta LS ha" which means "the LS that won dice should try to pull it immediately" (like steal it off).

I still don't get what is wrong with LS's teaming up to beat something. All any ls is basically a team. If two LS's agree to work together to beat something and come to an agreement on how to split the drops, I say good for them.

That's like saying 2 LS's teamed up to do dynamis. I guess they didn't really get to Xarcabard because they teamed up and therefore it doesn't count.


If people team up because alone they would be unable to beat it, and now they have beat it, seems pretty smart to me.

this is really a huge tangent to the thread, but our opinion (since we dont team up for stuff) is that if you're incapable of winning an encounter you should be working on improving LS members, management, and strategy to achieve it. if you're incapable and you just team up, then that sort of improvement doesn't ever happen and you don't really get better.

there's also a lot of technical problems, like with what happened with the koenig legs tonight i think. when english LSes team up with JP LSes and something good drops, theres gonna be a shitload of confusion over who deserves to lot even if there's clear interpreters. i dunno all the details but someone from finalheaven got them i think, and people from kazoku were pissed (shouts, search comments etc said so).

edit: on a side note saying "hyper" instead of "SSJ4" is what we should all be doing!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gregorio]

Okay...but that still doesn't answer my question completely. Why was PG 'entitled' to get it? As far as I know not all LSs there were given a chance to /random.

[Quicklet]

I'll clarify a few points.

If there was no wipe, how was PG+Way 'entitled' to claim it?

The LS that won claim (apparently the same teamup LS that killed it) was dying so there was a /random for who would be next if there was a wipe. The thing is that you'll never see a "full wipe" when you've got 40 people fighting it, because by the time the people with hate die, you have new people up to go back in. The problem here is that they let it lose aggro for about a good minute, let it regen slightly, then reclaimed, probably not knowing if it made hyper mode come off, but essentially enough people had died that KB lost claim for that length of time, and nobody made an effort to reclaim it until it started regenning.

I still don't get what is wrong with LS's teaming up to beat something. All any ls is basically a team. If two LS's agree to work together to beat something and come to an agreement on how to split the drops, I say good for them.

That's like saying 2 LS's teamed up to do dynamis. I guess they didn't really get to Xarcabard because they teamed up and therefore it doesn't count.


If people team up because alone they would be unable to beat it, and now they have beat it, seems pretty smart to me.

I don't have an inherent problem with team up LSes when it comes to dynamis (because it's 4x the designed size limit of non-dynamis encounters) or incredibly hard challenges (perhaps limited to Vrtra at this point). I do have a problem with separate LSes teaming up on easier encounters only because they don't have their own LS members available at the time. It's not like two LSes with 10-15 members each is teaming up to do this. It's like 2, 3, 4 LSes who already have 30-50+ members are teaming up because otherwise they would lose.

[berticus]

oh, kinda read it wrong.

i think they were the only people there at the pop, or maybe even a random happened, so people who arrived during the fight, after pg/way had been waiting ready to go next, (fanta, friendlyfire, etc (not us we were just watching)) werent part of the list to go next.

lses that arrive after a pop with another LS or number of LSes in waiting for a zenmetsu really shouldnt be allowed to start a random order. again thats another issue though.

square needs to fix their fix

[Demetrio$]

editedlolz

[Moggy]

lemme explain what actually happened
3 groups were camping, now i say group cos pop time was early JP time damepo didn't have enough ppl so wayfarer came as well, FI and FH were the other groups camping
KB popped 4/7 FH claimed, first off meteor killed 3 of them, they were actually down to 3 ppl at a stage when i saw more ppl joining in the fight

i saw pearl colours of at least 10 ls
at a latter stage jerle claims only kazoku came to help, but anyone there would've seen at least 10 different pearls were fighting

KB unclaimed at a stage as kazoku was coming, that was around 20 mins, apparently that reset SSJ as well, well basically FH + kazoku faught KB for 2 hours, then it SSJ, doing around 1.1k per hit on anyone

at this stage none of their melees could hit it, nin magic 0 dmg, smn BP all missed, blm doing 50-100 with one in an hour from xiaona doing 800, he died shortly after aka when KB reached him

Jerle i think is meant to be leader of FH? what ever, said they give up, first time he said it was shortly after SSJ, but nothing happened, then he said it again half an hour later when i think at that time 80% of their members were weakened from 3 meteor in a row

i dunno if he only told me, but i think he told poti as well, so we did a <call> to wake everyone up and got ready, they all disengaged and let ppl with hate die off

KB at a point was unclaimed without aggro, this basically means SSJ mode goes off in a few seconds, Jerle dia II KB after 10 secs when KB regened 2 ticks

well i think anyone knows damepo + way will wait for KB to regen to full hp before engaging, so what jerle did was basically lie to us so we don't claim

and yes if u totally disengage from KB its considered forfeiting, especially when KB no long had aggro

we didn't claim KB when it unclaimed after the lying, but if thats how FH works MPK'ing them will make the person a hero in no time X)

[Tonyanjaii]

I can agree with Berticus on that part about teaming up with another LS, it can cause much confusion to who gets what etc. Especially dealing with JP and the NA, the language conflict. Beating such HNM are not limited to just 1 LS, if a LS is not capable within a reasonable amount of people, I'm not saying claiming with 7 ppl and then teaming up with another LS cuz you didn't have enough, I can see the fault in that.

Also consider not all LS are capable of beating such HNMs, and does not make them any less by teaming up with another LS to take it down. I guess by your standards, these HNMs has been very easy for you guys, but I still think for others it can and may be more difficult so its hard to judge a mob's difficulty lvl based on your own experience.

When it went unclaimed for a good few seconds, just enough time for it to regen from 30% to 50% I believe is up for grounds for forfeit. But nobody bothered to do anything just watched, and they continued again.

Items went to who and what was a clusterfuck. M. Abj legs went to a BLM and Beh. Tongue went to a RDM due to confusion and lack of JP/ENG communications. Just feel bad for the PLD and MNK that were supposed to get their items didnt. Better luck next time is pretty all I can say.

[Moggy]

Okay...but that still doesn't answer my question completely. Why was PG 'entitled' to get it? As far as I know not all LSs there were given a chance to /random.

u my friend obviously weren't at pop when FH won claim FI and PG/way randomed, and it doesn't take a genius to realise u don't get to random if ur ls wasn't at camp
and PG/war was entitled cos our lil taru rolled 976 hahaha

[Gregorio]

This is what I heard from my LS as it was happening. Someone came into our LS and said they had claim on KB with a friends LS, a bunch of people from Kazoku went to help. After working on KB for a while, more members from both LSs showed up, and the Kazoku people were filtered out of the alliance as they died or whatever and the original LS who claimed continued fighting by themselves. I dunno if we were changed out intentionally or it just happened that way as people were dieing, but whatever. Before KB went hyper, Kazoku had about 16 people there (which is why I was confused on why PG had rights to it since we weren't included in the random). We did not rejoin the other LSs alliance because we were going to go at it ourselves.

Then hyper mode, etc happened. Kazoku members were angry with the drops because the other LS didn't let them in early enough to get to lot, and some people lotted on items which they couldn't really put to use (tongue to a RDM instead of our MNK, koenig legs to a BLM)

[berticus]

Jerle i think is meant to be leader of FH? what ever, said they give up, first time he said it was shortly after SSJ, but nothing happened, then he said it again half an hour later when i think at that time 80% of their members were weakened from 3 meteor in a row

i dunno if he only told me, but i think he told poti as well, so we did a <call> to wake everyone up and got ready, they all disengaged and let ppl with hate die off

KB at a point was unclaimed without aggro, this basically means SSJ mode goes off in a few seconds, Jerle dia II KB after 10 secs when KB regened 2 ticks

well i think anyone knows damepo + way will wait for KB to regen to full hp before engaging, so what jerle did was basically lie to us so we don't claim

wow.. that's really gay if that's what happened.

[Moggy]

This is what I heard from my LS as it was happening. Someone came into our LS and said they had claim on KB with a friends LS, a bunch of people from Kazoku went to help. After working on KB for a while, more members from both LSs showed up, and the Kazoku people were filtered out of the alliance as they died or whatever and the original LS who claimed continued fighting by themselves. I dunno if we were changed out intentionally or it just happened that way as people were dieing, but whatever. Before KB went hyper, Kazoku had about 16 people there (which is why I was confused on why PG had rights to it since we weren't included in the random). We did not rejoin the other LSs alliance because we were going to go at it ourselves.

Then hyper mode, etc happened. Kazoku members were angry with the drops because the other LS didn't let them in early enough to get to lot, and some people lotted on items which they couldn't really put to use (tongue to a RDM instead of our MNK, koenig legs to a BLM)

u don't really mean u turn up half way, fight KB with another ls, then want a random as well do u? O.O

[Moggy]

Jerle i think is meant to be leader of FH? what ever, said they give up, first time he said it was shortly after SSJ, but nothing happened, then he said it again half an hour later when i think at that time 80% of their members were weakened from 3 meteor in a row

i dunno if he only told me, but i think he told poti as well, so we did a <call> to wake everyone up and got ready, they all disengaged and let ppl with hate die off

KB at a point was unclaimed without aggro, this basically means SSJ mode goes off in a few seconds, Jerle dia II KB after 10 secs when KB regened 2 ticks

well i think anyone knows damepo + way will wait for KB to regen to full hp before engaging, so what jerle did was basically lie to us so we don't claim

wow.. that's really gay if that's what happened.

i dunno what he was thinking, but ask beckes he was there the whole time, but everyone saw it lose total hate, go yellow regen, and then they claimed again when they told us they give up

nothing major, not first KB we've killed, most likely won't be last, but just prefer some ethics, and notice i didn't start any topics only replying lol

[Gregorio]

This is what I heard from my LS as it was happening. Someone came into our LS and said they had claim on KB with a friends LS, a bunch of people from Kazoku went to help. After working on KB for a while, more members from both LSs showed up, and the Kazoku people were filtered out of the alliance as they died or whatever and the original LS who claimed continued fighting by themselves. I dunno if we were changed out intentionally or it just happened that way as people were dieing, but whatever. Before KB went hyper, Kazoku had about 16 people there (which is why I was confused on why PG had rights to it since we weren't included in the random). We did not rejoin the other LSs alliance because we were going to go at it ourselves.

Then hyper mode, etc happened. Kazoku members were angry with the drops because the other LS didn't let them in early enough to get to lot, and some people lotted on items which they couldn't really put to use (tongue to a RDM instead of our MNK, koenig legs to a BLM)

u don't really mean u turn up half way, fight KB with another ls, then want a random as well do u? O.O

Most of the people who were there had been there for a while and were already fighting before they were out of the alliance. And the person who originally claimed is in Kazoku.

[Jerle]

the thing was that when it went unclaimed was a nin or pld was running out from the bat area and provoked it. then i went in to dia2 it to keep dot.

I told poti i would tell him when my Ls would give up and he then replied understood. We combine we Kazoku LS only and the other LSes there were Bauer, who helped me as a friend and, perhaps some of my LS members who were talking in their own personal LS. If there is any confusion, i am sorry for that.

The treasure was screwed because too many people were talking at the same time, when i told them to pass and give the black belt item to Todd, who i presume is from Kazoku, and furthermore, we plan to send some of the loot to Kazoku's leader.

Sorry if there is any confusion.

[Quicklet]

the thing was that when it went unclaimed was a nin or pld was running out from the bat area and provoked it. then i went in to dia2 it to keep dot.

It was unclaimed for at least a minute. Nobody touched it at all during that time. It doesn't just start regenning accidentally. You have to basically stop fighting it completely to let it regen, and that's what happened.

When it went unclaimed for a good few seconds, just enough time for it to regen from 30% to 50% I believe is up for grounds for forfeit. But nobody bothered to do anything just watched, and they continued again.

Common etiquette suggests that an LS wait until a HNM regens to 100% to take claim. The fact that this was taken advantage of by an LS that otherwise had no chance of winning is a shame.

[ecurb]

this is really a huge tangent to the thread, but our opinion (since we dont team up for stuff) is that if you're incapable of winning an encounter you should be working on improving LS members, management, and strategy to achieve it. if you're incapable and you just team up, then that sort of improvement doesn't ever happen and you don't really get better.

there's also a lot of technical problems, like with what happened with the koenig legs tonight i think. when english LSes team up with JP LSes and something good drops, theres gonna be a shitload of confusion over who deserves to lot even if there's clear interpreters. i dunno all the details but someone from finalheaven got them i think, and people from kazoku were pissed (shouts, search comments etc said so).

edit: on a side note saying "hyper" instead of "SSJ4" is what we should all be doing!!!!!!!!!!!

if a single LS cant kill it with the people that they have, why even bother going? asking to team up with another ls is just lame. you would have to decide who gets what when it drops and the drama continues from there. Now imagine if defending ring dropped. Who would get it? i was just there to watch with 5-6 other ls members because we heard 2 linkshells teamed up to kill kb...