FFXI zone visual design and PS2(?)

[berticus]

Veritas (BG class of 2004) ran me through Deadmines on WoW the other day and as we were progressing I noticed something that seemed kind of insignificant but is very important for FFXI. The scenery changed within the zone. I don't remember it exactly but it seemed to go like house->mines->blacksmith area->forge->elevator thing->(door you blow up with a cannon)underground river with a ship & woodworking facility off to the side all in one zone. It reminded me a lot of SolB in EQ, running from lava caves->noxious spider lair->fire giant castle entrance->inside a fire giant castle->drawbridge->nagafen prep area->nagafen's lair itself or something roughly like that.

Any semblance of a raid in FFXI, for example dynamisxar, is snowy field with dark sky->snowy field with dark sky in front of a castle. Limbus, dull color floor->dull color floor, or white room->white room. I think FFXI could improve drastically if square improved the environment to where it would change based on where you are. I think the tiniest example of this is the Fafnir pop area which is really the only nicely designed visual unique-to-a-zone looking spot I can think of in the entire game.

For anyone who knows about graphic design in games, or whatever the applicable field, is it more likely that square has extremely boring environments because they're incapable of imagining/designing it, or because PS2 can't handle the amount of graphics? It seems like each zone has something like a tileset in an FPS or RTS (snow, desert, white room, dull floor) and isn't able to display anything else. Does anyone else care that the zones' appearances are completely static?

I'd ask Square but they're too busy answering "Why can't I charm stroper chyme?" (wonder if that dude was trying to be rebellious by asking that )

[SiryOp]

I'd ask Square but they're too busy answering "Why can't I charm stroper chyme?"

lol...

[Elcura]

I'd like to see that as well, I had some long rant written up but some how I erased it =\

[Andarvi]

the waterfalls in misreaux coast are hot too. and the bluff overlookin tav. and carpenters landing.

[Sekkite]

I see quite a few repetitions in WoW also. I did take the time to try it out, and I've noticed that quite a few of the towns in the same region had the exact same models for the houses. If you had to go to a town hall, it would look exactly the same as every other town hall in the whole region. If you had to go to a weapons shop in an enemy area to kill something, the weapons shop would look exactly the same as every other one.

[berticus]

im not saying wow or any MMO lacks repetition, im saying wow has raid zones with a badass visual dynamic and ffxi doesnt/would be better if it did

[layoneil]

part of it has to be a PS2 hardware issue. but i think some of it also just has to do with them being lazy.

KRT goes pretty seamlessly from outside > cave > cermet hidden room

does WoW have no zones at all?

Does anyone else care that the zones' appearances are completely static?

there are bigger fish to fry for this to be a big issue imo.

[Ravidrath]

This seems sort of like a silly complaint to me, but also wrong.

First of all, they're zones, so I don't expect a lot of variance within them. When you want a different visual theme, you go to a different zone? This stems, however, from the PS2's hardware because of memory limitations not just for textures, but also geometry, and how that limits the physical sizes of the zones and the limits that places on realistic, sudden desertification.

Second, WoW also has seamless environments, so it's not an even remotely applicable comparison.

Third, while these areas use the same tilesets, I do think there are a fair number of examples of what you're talking about already, though.

Here are a few...

Yuhtunga Jungle: Jungle, caves, cliff/valley area around Norg.

Attohwa Chasm: Open areas, chasms, caves, the mazes, Parradamo Tor.

Lufaise/Misareaux: Fields, coast, bridges, waterfall.

King Ranperre's Tomb: Outdoor ruins, Catacombs

Xarcabard: Snowy field, auroral chasms

As for the comment about the Fafnir area being the only "imaginative" area with any effort in visual design, I think that's totally wrong. First, it's one of the smallest zones in the game, so they have more memory to afford visual variety there.

Square pretty much has the best artists in the industry. If you look at the FFXI World Concept art book available in Japan, you'll see they've put a HUGE amount of effort into designing the areas of the game, and a lot more preproduction that what goes into most American-made MMOs. They have pages and pages of concept art for the plants in every area, and detailed illustrations of all of the game's unique areas. While plants may not seem like a big deal, I think they did everything they could to vary the areas within the limitations of the PS2 hardware and the game's more muted aesthetic. They made a conscious choice at the outset for this not to be over-the-top like FFX and WoW.

Also, there are also tons of unique setpiece areas, but many of those areas aren't "open" and are BCs - maybe this is why you have this perception, but they're there. Hell, the Fafnir area is practically a BC, you just have to wait a set amount of time to fight him.

Here's a link to the artbook, if you're interested in seeing it for yourself.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASI ... 97-6293952

[berticus]

wow's outdoor areas are seamless but are labelled as zones and the look/feel changes when you go from place to place. you zone into instances like you would any other zone (there's a load time) and it's basically the same as any zone in ffxi or eq except for that it's instanced.

and yeah, i definitely don't think it's that big of an issue. i mean i didn't even care about the way ffxi zones looked until i did this a couple days ago. it just caught my eye really fast and now that i've seen something sexy i'm bothered by something ugly

[Varnx]

I really don't think FF zones look horrible. First time I beat Promyvions, I though Lufaise Meadows/Miseraux Coast looked fantastic. Most of the BC Areas also look very nice.

[layoneil]

i think overall FFXI's outdoor areas look really good, even though the variance inside a zone is fairly limited, it's the indoor places that seem crappy to me.

less caves and more architecturally advanced structures like Temple of Ugly would be nice.

[Elcura]

I like sparkly zones (no i'm not gay) like the final BC area, a whole zone like that would be fucking orgasmic.

[Kenster]

WoW also has interactive enviroments: http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 8215ch.jpg

[layoneil]

what FFXI does need though is more stuff like Pso'Xja, the tiles, elevators and stuff is really cool. Ifrit's is nice too with the flame sprouts, one way cliffs (though it would be nice if a lot of them was much bigger drop-offs).

[Lordwafik]

I see what berticus is saying, he wants a zone where, you zone into one environment style, and at the end it's like a totally different area.

Kinda like in Resident Evil 4, at the start of the game you're at some spanishesque village, and near the end of the game, you're at a german-death-sex-cult-manifest type of place, mobs are different, environment is different, you're like "Wow I've gotten all the way here" , and you dont notice the immediate change. You dont notice the environment has turned from 1 to the other, it was done subtly.

In FFXI, you cant zone into a castle entrance, and go beneath it to find a enchanted forest underneath a hidden trapdoor for example.

But I dont think it's a PS2 problem at all, it's a development thing. Look at all the older FF games, each zone pretty much consists of the 1 style of environment. FF:CC is the best example I can think of, it's pretty much like FFXI offline. Each zone has it's own style, but it doesnt exactly flow into another style. That's just the SE way of things.

[rooster]

i think that bert, what you are talking about is a EQ dungeon...

EQ's dungeon were soooo nice... not saying that all of them were, but think about it; city of mist, sebillis, and Temple of veeshan to name a few... They all changed as you got deeper and deeper, they got harder and harder as well. I believe that FFXI is physically able to process and make these type of areas, but they fail not to.

The game needs more deep dungeons that have NMs that can pop. remember the days of Lower guk? i sure do... you'd find an NM to camp around... you'd get an invite go to your camp and every 1-3 hours there'd be a Placeholder pop or a NM pop. When you kill'd it, it would have a common and rare drop that you'd random for...

More HNMs and more deep hard to get to and fun zones.

[berticus]

WoW also has seamless environments, so it's not an even remotely applicable comparison.

i don't think it's beyond applicable to compare the visuals of 2 mmo's no matter how they're implemented.

Third, while these areas use the same tilesets, I do think there are a fair number of examples of what you're talking about already, though.

Here are a few...
Yuhtunga Jungle: Jungle, caves, cliff/valley area around Norg.
Attohwa Chasm: Open areas, chasms, caves, the mazes, Parradamo Tor.
Lufaise/Misareaux: Fields, coast, bridges, waterfall.
King Ranperre's Tomb: Outdoor ruins, Catacombs
Xarcabard: Snowy field, auroral chasms

those are all there - and they all change - but they're all in passing and not in playing. i think maybe my actual issue is more that you stand too still too much in ffxi. like attohwa itself has some nice enviroment changes, but when you're actually playing there (killing tiamat or alastor for instance) its staring at the same place over and over again.

Square pretty much has the best artists in the industry.

I think they did everything they could to vary the areas within the limitations of the PS2 hardware and the game's more muted aesthetic. They made a conscious choice at the outset for this not to be over-the-top like FFX and WoW.

it's a shame then, that they don't get to exercise their talent more. ffxi grossly recycles models and textures to such a noticable and boring level. af1+1, 3wyrms=fafnir with diff colors, towns/areas->dynamis areas, i'm getting kind of tired of it.

i can definitely see how they managed to push ps2 to its limits. but it seems like ps2 is raping the game on many terms, not just visual. yeah, sundi said they didnt add more new armor to cop because of ps2 memory - visuals thing. but he also said that they cant add more storage slots because of ps2 memory, which goes way beyond just looks.

i'm mainly arguing that ffxi is starting to get and has already been blown away by other games, including older ones, because of some key differences. what i'm trying to find out here is if those differences could be resolved by somehow removing ps2 as the limiting factor (i.e. it will only ever get as good as ps2 wil let it)

[Varnx]

Be careful what you wish for with these interactive enviroments. They'll end up making those drops offs break your legs....or have you fall to you death in Movalpolos....Although it would be funny to see a Bard fall into a Spiked Pit or something when he runs inbetween the Mages and Melee.

[Ravidrath]

it's a shame then, that they don't get to exercise their talent more. ffxi grossly recycles models and textures to such a noticable and boring level. af1+1, 3wyrms=fafnir with diff colors, towns/areas->dynamis areas, i'm getting kind of tired of it.

Please don't confuse artistic talent with schedule and budget constraints, as they are very different.

While it would of course be nice to have more visual variety on monsters, clearly Square believes the benefit wouldn't justify the time, effort and money needed and would rather task their artists to making new monsters and areas for the next expansion than continually updating existing ones. But if you have specific monsters in mind, send them a suggestion. The gods in Sky were just normal monsters for a long time, and then Square suddenly updated them, probably as a result of player demand.

And don't expect the PS2 to go away any time soon. I'm sure the development team would like to unshackle themselves from the PS2's limitations in certain circumstances, but they still have enough PS2 customers to justify servicing them. If everyone on PS2 gets an Xbox 360, then maybe they could consider this, but that doesn't seem likely with the Japan situation. And if they did, what would the new baseline standard be? The PC is too mutable of a format, and the 360 is more powerful than most PCs playing this game.

Finally, making game assets for more powerful system is more expensive - by getting rid of the PS2 and raising the bar, they'd just have to spend more money on the new stuff and, presumably, more money updating the old stuff for you. They're working on a next generation MMO, so just wait for that.

If this stuff really bothers you and is impeding your ability to have fun, then maybe it's time to move on.

[Sekkite]

They could always have a seperate mesh for PC and Xbox users from PS2 users.