Jailer and AV traits.

[anarkrist]

I've started to see a pattern in the traits and abilities they use and they (from the limited info I have available) seem to be related to an intricate pattern of previously obtained Virtue Weapons (notice which jobs can use them). However, around the time i come to Jailer of Prudence the info about it's traits and abilities are lacking altogether. So, what can you tell me about JoPs abilities? Does it have any abilities that would remind you of BRD or SMN? Does it perhaps resist silence and slow?

My main theory is that using a Virtue Weapon that corresponds with the Jailers abilities and traits might disallow the use of these abilities and/or dispel any traits. I realize that this has been brought up several times before and although I found this pattern and came up with the idea myself prior to reading other peoples similar theories it's up to you whether or not you want to believe that (and I quite frankly don't give a shit either). If you have any objections to my theory please prove me wrong instead of coming up with half-educated anecdotal evidence based on mobs from a totally different part of Vana'Diel.

Take Jailer of Fortitude as an example this guy is obviously a PLD type mob, is it possible to sleep him? Or will he just resist any attempt on doing so? Sort of like the PLD trait Resist Sleep.
Have you tried fighting him with a Justice Sword and Virtue Stone equipped?
My theory here is that if a PLD using a Justice Sword is fighting him he might refrain from using Invincible and his (as of yet unconfirmed) Resist Sleep will be dispelled.

I believe the same thing might hold true with Jailer of Temperances Meikyo Shisui and (possible and also unconfirmed) Resist Blind with a SAM using Love Halberd.

Considering Jailer of Hopes reported behavior I'm inclined to believe this NM is a RDM/THF/WAR type mob (Mighty Strikes, fast melee attacks and very fast casting along with en- and spikespells), does he resist Petrify (RDM), Gravity (THF) and Virus (WAR) (I'm not even sure if this debuff is available atm)?
How about trying those debuffs and check if they are resisted and if they are try them again with a character of the corresponding jobs wielding his/her corresponding Virtue Weapon.
I might be off on the THF part seeing as his fast melee hits can be a result of Double Attack.

It should be pretty clear what I'm getting at by now, but in case someone needs it spelled out for them my point is that I believe these NMs were designed to be taken down with diverse groups. And the "required" diversity of jobs gets higher at higher tiers. JoL and AV are the ones that really requires a wide array of jobs to take down easily if my theory is proven correct.


All in all, what I would like someone to do is to try debuffs on the different NMs and see what sticks and what's resisted and then try those same debuffs with the corresponding job/weapon combo. And also on the next LoJ fight that any of you might take part in try to equip a WHM with a Prudence Rod and Virtue Stone and see if that might stop or reduce the regen (try both passive and offensive use).

If this works it might be the key to finally kill AV without a zonewide wipe.

[Mifaco]

protip: chainspell meteor hurts

[Lyramion]

Jailer of Prudance spawns as 2 enemies. They use unlimited perfect dodges. Their hate is sort of strange - partially shared.

They both use AOEs that hurt big time for about 600 damage or cost 2-3 shadows.

They also use constant Trippleattack that can rip tank apart in seconds. Hit PLDs for around 150.


When you kill one of them the other goes SSJ. Cost us hell of a reraising orgy to bring it down

[Correction]

from the limited info I have available

I stopped reading there.

[anarkrist]

Thanks Lyramion, at least someone had some useful info to contribute.
Another question, which debuffs sticks on them and which doesn't?

I know most (if not all) of what I said has been said before and shot down by numerous people, but I've yet to find any mention of anyone trying it out.

[Genosync]

Your theories make me laugh harder than I've ever laughed before.

Sorry.

[SassiAsura]

"If you have any objections to my theory please prove me wrong instead of coming up with half-educated anecdotal evidence based on mobs from a totally different part of Vana'Diel."

heh, normally you say that after actually proving something.
For instance, a screenshot of you landing Silence on whichever Jailer seems to resist it all the time while pointing out some people are using the said weapons you seem to think dispell the Jailer's passive job traits. Saying you don't give a shit and that you have to be proven wrong after proving nothing yourself doesn't prove anything.

While your organs are contained inside your body they're all fluorescent orange. Prove me wrong.

Go try your theories.

[Faranim]

It's impossible to dispel job traits. The game engine simply doesn't support it. While the usage of Job Abilities can be restricted by whatever algorithm the monster follows (for example, you never see a WHM mob use Divine Seal although they do have the capability of it. Similarly you could create monsters that stop using certain abilities after something happens to them), Job Traits are passive and thus can never be removed from a mob unless you change its job in the middle of battle.

A further analysis could be done on how the game engine actually defines what a "mob" and its abilites are, but this is not necessary. Job Traits are permanant, and if a mob is designed to have a certain job trait at a certain level, there is no way to "disable" it without altering the level/job of the mob.

[divisortheory]

It's impossible to dispel job traits. The game engine simply doesn't support it.

Kind of a bold statement isn't it? Were you one of the designers of the game engine?

It's certainly possible to enable job traits (for example Brutal Earring gives Double Attack even if you didn't have it before). How can you be sure again that they can't be removed?

[anarkrist]

heh, normally you say that after actually proving something.
For instance, a screenshot of you landing Silence on whichever Jailer seems to resist it all the time while pointing out some people are using the said weapons you seem to think dispell the Jailer's passive job traits. Saying you don't give a shit and that you have to be proven wrong after proving nothing yourself doesn't prove anything.

You seem to have misunderstood, the thing is that I don't have the possibility to prove anything at the moment and I have never claimed to have proven anything, what I was asking is that instead of just shooting it down immediately someone prove that my theory is wrong. The reason I took this to the BG forum is that I know for a fact that alot of the users here have sea access and the possibility to try it, which I don't. Secondly, the part about me not giving a shit was referring to whether or not anyone believed that this theory was my own.

As for the respons about not being able to dispel passive traits, not much about the jailers and alot of the CoP mobs in general seem to follow the standard "rules" ingame (multiple 2hr abilities and several times within 2 hours and mob reraise comes to mind). And I think it's more like they might refrain from using them if the right conditions are met rather than dispeling them.

Your theories make me laugh harder than I've ever laughed before.

Sorry.

No reason to apologize, I know it's farfetched and I have to admit it makes me laugh as well, but I also got similar responses from other players when I told them about the inverted elemental attribute of Crystal Weapon (Golem special attack in case you didn't know), you basically don't want Barfire up when these guys use a fire elemental Crystal Weapon.

EDIT: Removed noob comment about sky gods.

[tiberion02]

sky gods dont have auto-regen, a job trait, they have en-spells, a magic trait.

faranim is right. Show me ONE mob in this game that you can dispel a job trait from and I'll give any credence to this theory

[FFXIFlux]

sky gods dont have auto-regen, a job trait, they have en-spells, a magic trait.

faranim is right. Show me ONE mob in this game that you can dispel a job trait from and I'll give any credence to this theory

Floor 3 Temenos, the beastmen gods lose their frenzy, damage resistance and maybe their regen if you kill their followers.

Jailer of Fortitude loses it's ability to cast spells when it's defenders are killed.

[Ankiseth]

sky gods dont have auto-regen, a job trait, they have en-spells, a magic trait.

faranim is right. Show me ONE mob in this game that you can dispel a job trait from and I'll give any credence to this theory

Floor 3 Temenos, the beastmen gods lose their frenzy, damage resistance and maybe their regen if you kill their followers.

Jailer of Fortitude loses it's ability to cast spells when it's defenders are killed.

That's not dispelling a trait by an actual means of dispelling the mob in question.

[Zigrah]

Show me ONE mob in this game that you can dispel a job trait from and I'll give any credence to this theory

Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it is impossible. I think that is ideally the point when someone says "think outdside the box" is to come up with something that defies conventional thinking. I'm not saying he's right or wrong, and I can come nowhere close to proving him right or wrong. Nor would I waste the time to prove him wrong with all the effort required on the jailers just because he can't seem to do it himself. It's nice to have theorists but experience is required for proper theory. Then once you have a theory you need to prove it or else it's just conjecture. There are about 12 outstanding "Theories" that have yet to be tested and I don't think most people realize how hard it is to test one of such theories.

There is no doubt in my mind that the weapons and items dropped play a part in it but what part I wouldn't even begin to guess.

[Nicholas]

People keep trying too hard to find uses for the Virtue weapons, and coming up with theorized connections to the jailers. It just doesn't work that way.

Think about sky...you get weapons from a lot of the gods. Take Byakko's Axe for example. Does it give any special advantage when fighting another god? No, it does not. It's simply a weapon named after the NM that dropped it. This is the case with a lot of drops in FFXI.

Hell...think about it logically. Each of the virtue weapons represent different "virtues". You don't use a virtue to beat another. Justice doesn't "Defeat" Fortitude. They're just unrelated virtues is all. If there was some intricate weak to/strong to relationship among these jailers and the weapons, then the jailers would have been named after vices....something to indicate a positive/negative relationship.

Most of the jailers are very easy once you figure out the trick to beating them. Hell...most of the monsters in this game are. Sad as it makes me, I don't think Jailer of Love or Absolute Virtue are any different. They just require a strategy which depends on a lot of people. I'd love to think that there is some magical trick we are missing that will somehow weaken Absolute Virtue...but based on the evidence (.dat files, etc) I just don't think there is. SE simply put in a really hard monster that's almost impossible to defeat, to serve as a major challenge. Most of the shit in this game is easy anyway.

[Khamsin]

sky gods dont have auto-regen, a job trait, they have en-spells, a magic trait.

faranim is right. Show me ONE mob in this game that you can dispel a job trait from and I'll give any credence to this theory

Floor 3 Temenos, the beastmen gods lose their frenzy, damage resistance and maybe their regen if you kill their followers.

Jailer of Fortitude loses it's ability to cast spells when it's defenders are killed.

He said job traits. Frenzy and JoF's pseudo-reflect aren't job traits.

There are lots of mobs programmed with various ways to make them weaker (from the above mentioned examples, to anima, CCB, salt, etc. added with CoP, and even as far back as Eald'narche's exoplates in the final ZM).

But there is still no mob anywhere you can dispel a job trait from. En-dispel weapons come close (with a buggy "..loses the KO effect" message), but hasn't happened yet.

[anarkrist]

sky gods dont have auto-regen, a job trait, they have en-spells, a magic trait.

faranim is right. Show me ONE mob in this game that you can dispel a job trait from and I'll give any credence to this theory

Sorry, noob comment, post will be edited to remove that comment.

[Khamsin]

Take Byakko's Axe for example. Does it give any special advantage when fighting another god?

Technically, Byakko's Axe would give you a special advantage tanking Byakko (Beast Killer) . Same with Suzaku's Scythe (Bird Killer), and Scarecrow Scythe (Add effect on birds: bind) on Suzaku.

But yeah... those aren't exactly the kind of "special advantages" you were thinking about.

[Rafbacca]

People keep trying too hard to find uses for the Virtue weapons, and coming up with theorized connections to the jailers. It just doesn't work that way.

Think about sky...you get weapons from a lot of the gods. Take Byakko's Axe for example. Does it give any special advantage when fighting another god? No, it does not. It's simply a weapon named after the NM that dropped it. This is the case with a lot of drops in FFXI.

Hell...think about it logically. Each of the virtue weapons represent different "virtues". You don't use a virtue to beat another. Justice doesn't "Defeat" Fortitude. They're just unrelated virtues is all. If there was some intricate weak to/strong to relationship among these jailers and the weapons, then the jailers would have been named after vices....something to indicate a positive/negative relationship.

How about the weapons from Eldieme? Some of those are the opposite of Sea drops

Eldieme weapons - Sea Weapons
Wrath Tabar - Temperance Axe or - Fortitude Axe
Sloth Wand - Love Halberd
Pride Staff - Hope Staff
Lust Dagger - ?
Greed Scimitar - ?
Gluttony Sword - Justice Sword
Envy Spear - Love Halberd
? - Faith Baghnakhs

Beat him up with crappy weapons?

[Nicholas]

It's a nice idea, but 1) those eldieme weapons don't correspond to the Sea virtues and 2) if there was some trick to defeating Sea NMs, it would most likely be found in Sea.