WS question

[Not Kuno]

This has been bothering me for a while so I'm gonna ask you all. I don't melee much ever so I don't have any real experience with this.

Ok so basically I'm looking at 2 staves for the weapon skill Spirit Taker. My current weapon of choice is kirin's pole, and I'm wondering if a Thyrsusstab would be worth getting for higher damage. For those that don't know, Spirit Taker's mods are 50% INT and 50% MND.

My question is this: Kirin's pole has 10 INT and 10 MND. Thyrsomething has 5 more damage on the weapon (and critical%+ but I'm ignoring that). Which would result in higher ws damage? Is 5 more damage on the weapon better then the mods for the WS? I don't care for regular melee damage, just wondering about the WS.

[Lasitha]

Good Question Kuno. I have been wondering exactly the same but I feared posting something like this would get me a "OMG ALLAKHAZAM" answer.

Anyway, I was fighting with my Jupiter's Staff just to mess around with the critical. I did a 705 MP Spirit Taker 300% with Kirin's Pole, and then then I did 550-580 with Jupiter's at 300% but 1 of them was 620 MP. I assume it was either a critical or a lower lvl mob from the ones I had been fighting.

So I would assume maybe Thyrsbwatchamacallit would do well if it procs. But if not, my opinion is Kirin's Staff> All just because of the MND and INT.

[Septimus]

I think that the +10 INT and MND on the Kirin's Pole would be a lot better than 5 more damage and a slightly greater chance at a critical hit. Since both are used as WS modifiers, that will have a fairly large impact on your Spirit Taker damage.

[savageboy]

the dmg seems to be better from primate > kirins...significantly
i know the thrysusussaabarbab is 4 less dmg than primates? so i dunno...but i havent seen a great jump in dmg from the 10int+mnd ironically b/c that being the modifier.
also significantly more dmg from just using berserk...so unless its a lot ... dmg/attk > int/mnd...for me anyways

[Palin]

Mods are usually inferior to raw damage(and Strength), personally I'd go with the +5 D.

[Ninjadik]

which staff did u guys use to skill up on? There has to be something better than the elemental staves and not as hard to get as the mercurial pole.... skillups are sooo slow ><;

[Russta]

which staff did u guys use to skill up on?

Signet Staff + Hpmede x Go to bed/work = Cap

Sucks for you (and all of us) they patched it.

[Not Kuno]

the dmg seems to be better from primate > kirins...significantly
i know the thrysusussaabarbab is 4 less dmg than primates? so i dunno...but i havent seen a great jump in dmg from the 10int+mnd ironically b/c that being the modifier.
also significantly more dmg from just using berserk...so unless its a lot ... dmg/attk > int/mnd...for me anyways

If that was an available option I would have mentioned it. But SMN (and BLM) can't use it so I don't care for it.

And I dont care for Criticals either, as noted in my main post. Mostly because some of the time I go smn/thf so getting crits on Spirit Taker is no real concern.


As for how I leveled staff... it was a very slow and long process. It took a very long time to do, and I dont want to waste time/seals getting this staff and then alot more time unlocking it just to find out it sucks.

[Ninjadik]

I dont want to waste time/seals getting this staff and then alot more time unlocking it just to find out it sucks

huh?

[edgarfigaro]

Kuno, just do spirit taker without equipment, then add 10 int and mnd to get a feeling as to how much the k pole gives you in extra damage. Then make your decision that way.

[Not Kuno]

I dont want to waste time/seals getting this staff and then alot more time unlocking it just to find out it sucks

huh?

The Thyrsomething staff is one of those weapons you need to do alot of WS with to unlock the latents. Like destroyers or whatever.

Kuno, just do spirit taker without equipment, then add 10 int and mnd to get a feeling as to how much the k pole gives you in extra damage. Then make your decision that way.

But I dont have any 65 damage staves to compare. See above comment.

[Xrave]

I think he meant use a normal staff with no extra equipment and add an extra 10 MND and 10 INT in equipment (without changing the staff you're testing with) to see how much of a difference it makes.

Edit: Then if possible find a two staffs with a 5 damage difference and see how that effects it.

[Aireiya]

If you're looking at the way the mods are calculated in WS damage, Kirin's Pole wins hands down.

50% of +20 (int and mnd) = 10.

10*.83 at lvl 75 = 8 (rounded down)

Gives kirin's pole a D68 rating on WS. The mod goes into the exact same place as the wDMG, so it makes sense to compare them directly.

[aurik]

On WS @75, base damage of Thyrsusstab thingy will be 65 + fSTR + (mnd+int)/2 * 0.83 = 65 + C + 0
Where C = integer[(mnd+int) * 0.415] + fSTR

On WS @75, base damage of Kirin's Pole will be 60 + fSTR + (mnd+10+int+10)/2 * 0.83 = 60 + C + 8.3 = 68 + C
Where C is the same as above, disregarding the mnd and int given by the staff.

So, Kirin's pole will have higher *base* damage. However, we have ignored the 6% crit chance on the Thyrsusstab.

Since it's most efficient to spam @ 100% instead of building 300% TP, let's assume fTP = 1.

Overall damage will be (68+C)*fTP*PDIF=(68+C)*PDIF for Kirin's Pole
Accounting for the crit chance on Thyrsusstab, overall damage will be (65+C)*fTP*(PDIF+0.06)=(65+C)*(PDIF+0.06)

In order for them to be equally strong,
(68+C)*PDIF = (65+C)*(PDIF+0.06)
3*PDIF + (65+C)*PDIF = (65+C)*PDIF + (65+C)*0.06
3*PDIF = (65+C)*0.06
3*PDIF = 3.9 + 0.06C
If 3*PDIF < 3.9+0.06C, Thyrsusstab is stronger.

Since PDIF will average at the absolute maximum 2.0, then the Thyrsusstab is clearly stronger if
6 < 3.9+0.06C
2.1/0.06 < C
C > 36

If your fSTR is 0 (which it will almost certainly be above), then you need a combined mnd+int score of 87 in order for Thyrsusstab to be stronger, which is very likely at 75. Crit% is a powerful thing.

Someone wanna check my math?

[Daahan]

go with the T thing.

STR is a modifier for all polearm skills for example.

Dreizack = DMG: 87 STR+4

Orichalcum Lance = DMG: 92 no attribute enhancements

Orichalcum Lance > Dreizack

tested it on parse

[Alleya]

dmg/delay is always the biggest factor, always always (except for spirits within teehee).

WSs are calculated and modified on your base hit. The harder you hit it, the greater number you get when everything is multiplied. Modifiers themselves play a much much smaller role. (excpet in the case of the 3 sam WS where the modifier is absolutely gigantic)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...curvechart.jpg

[Jotaru]

And we never thought we'd use math in 'real life'

[Epical]

Moral of the story: seeing cute little stat bonuses means nothing.

If INT+10/MND+10 < 5 base dmg, then ... wow. =(

[Jotaru]

Well, also consider that the math presented before assumes a few things... One of which is the 6% increase in crit hits. Overall, it may parse higher, but unless you're using the WS consistently in a party for a few hours, 'overall' isnt exactly the best way to look at it. You could do twenty Spirit Takers in the course of a night soloin stuff and not have the crit proc once on WS, in which case the stat bonuses mean quite a lot.

[aurik]

+20 stat on a 50% modifier gives 8.3 base damage.
It's the crit bonus (1.0 bonus to PDIF 6% of the time averages to 0.06 PDIF bonus 100% of the time) that pushes it over.

Now you know why destroyers are so destructive: dmg/delay that would make it the best knuckles, and THEN 6% crit.