Anyone still care about AV?

[XxSlusherxx]

Whether or not theyre personally fulfilled isn't the argument here. You cant argue the massive use thing without realizing that how much exp some monk in KRT pulls an hour means jack shit to anyone and everyone in that LS unless theyre in said party and an actual useful job to the LS.

ok, serious question, if you were in Map's position would you have taken the Mar's ring (keep in mind he has relic stage 4 so saving for futsudo is pointless)

and @Aurik it's really easy to have both, since both have cooldown timers of 45 seconds or more.

[aurik]

Whether or not theyre personally fulfilled isn't the argument here. You cant argue the massive use thing without realizing that how much exp some monk in KRT pulls an hour means jack shit to anyone and everyone in that LS unless theyre in said party and an actual useful job to the LS.

ok, serious question, if you were in Map's position would you have taken the Mar's ring (keep in mind he has relic stage 4 so saving for futsudo is pointless)

and @Aurik it's really easy to have both, since both have cooldown timers of 45 seconds or more.

Why not swap in more summoners? 2 summon parties, just interchange them wholesale!

[BRP]

MNKs can melee DD on everything in sky save Kirin, Byakko, and Faust. Most sky LSes don't evolve into kings camping ones. Giving a BRD a haidate over MNK is pretty stupid, it terms of bettering the LS.

[Lockecole]

My point is if a LS is actually more concerned with benefitting their events as a whole then lowering the recasts of a communal buffer, while being admittedly minimal, is a lot more than your sidelined monk getting an extra round in every 20 as opposed to just giving them melee hose to get an extra kick in every 20 rounds. Does your LS use monks for events in a way that actually puts haidate to regular use? No, not likely. I'm all for giving items to people based on use but dont delude yourself into defending a pretty petty point when it's likely the most you even see out of your monks for LS events is chi blasting which gets absolutely 0 out of it.

Am I saying a BRD makes the most use out of haidate? No, far from it, from a LS use point of view giving one to a monk is absolutely worthless.

Yes I have a monk, yes it wears haidate. I know how useful haidate is to a monk on a personal level, but I'm not arguing that at all.

Personal level? What does that even mean? If you know how much it benefits your MNK, then why the debate? My LS is both a social and HNMLS. We do Limbus, Dynamis, ENMs, Kings, everything together as an LS. Noone has another pearl to anything else, so EVERYTHING they do concerns me. If it benefits them in anything that will benefit the LS, then Im interested in that. If it helps them get better EXP/hour, so they can get more merits for their important jobs, then Im down for that. Trust me, I have Haidate and a 75 BRD, and I hardly if ever use it on BRD. I'd never cast lots on it over a melee who could use it, therefore I'd expect the same of any other member in my LS...regardless of their own priorities.

I realize my situation doesn't cover all possible scenarios, but a BRD lotting a Haidate over a MNK, knowing how much he'd use it, regardless of wether its directly within an HNM event, is just being a lootwhore.

[Ryko]

Me? Absolutely, it's not like every NIN in his LS has a speed belt (hello people who go "it's a glorified speed belt, who cares"), then again I don't really care about the ninurta's sash, I'm more entertained by how shoddy a lot of the arguments and accusations both ways go.

Personal level? What does that even mean?

Read up and you'll understand what I meant by a personal level. A nin losing recast time on his utsusemi will benefit him when he's alone and exping the same as it would a WAR/NIN, but nins are often given them first because *gasp* the NIN is in a lot more situations for the LS where they all benefit from that NIN's lower recast. As for a monk being capable, that's nice, also not what I was arguing. How many established LSes do you see with a monk up there throwing punches at like anything. I think the one screenshot where I saw this was ulmega fighting proto-ultima, and I cant even be sure if that's exactly as I remember it.

[Koyangi]

http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/5768
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/5769
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2218
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7576
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/4456
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/975
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2639

All a BRD really needs in any situation seriously, you pick 1, and omg THOSE help the BRD do it's Job.

P.S. The last 2 listed are better for Stoneskin than Haidate.

[Ryko]

Yeah, and melee hose or shura pants suit a monk just fine too in terms of merit monkeying, so what.

[Rocl]

BREAK IT UP
Let's get back on the topic of WHM Novio Earrings and SAM Ninurta Sashes!

[Priran]

I'd rather a BRD wear http://images.somepage.com/ffxi/icons/14315.jpg anyway. You don't need faster recast if your shit isn't resisted.

[Ryko]

It's likely the choral cannions +1 would lend to that more than the seraweels, but that's neither here nor there, you cant resist a buff anyway.

[Awoir]

I'd rather a BRD wear http://images.somepage.com/ffxi/icons/14315.jpg anyway. You don't need faster recast if your shit isn't resisted.

Why not Mahatma then? Also has Enm-

[Lockecole]

Yeah, and melee hose or shura pants suit a monk just fine too in terms of merit monkeying, so what.

Republic Subligar suits a MNK "just fine." Doesnt mean they should wear it. A BRD is keeping a MNK from their BEST melee slot, in order to have a piece of gear that is WORSE then about 5 different pieces of gear they can already wear. See the issue here? If this was the best piece of gear for a BRD, we wouldnt even be having this conversation, but its not, not even close.

[Ryko]

You're seriously trying to make the argument that a republic subligar is about as less useful compared to melee hose and shura pants that those 2 are compared to byakko's haidate? As for how minimally useful haidate are to a bard, I already accepted that. My point is (has been, and will continue to be) that a monk's melee capability doesnt mean shit to you. I don't really even care if you're in the same LS, that monk punching a little more and critting a little more means nothing to your LS in their day to day HNM functions. At the very worst it's 2 people lotting on a piece that they want to feel better about themselves that will show little to no use to your LS as a whole, what's the big deal.

[Koyangi]

You're seriously trying to make the argument that a republic subligar is about as less useful compared to melee hose and shura pants that those 2 are compared to byakko's haidate? As for how minimally useful haidate are to a bard, I already accepted that. My point is (has been, and will continue to be) that a monk's melee capability doesnt mean shit to you, I don't really even care if you're in the same LS, that monk punching a little more and critting a little more means nothing to your LS in their day to day HNM functions.

And 1 second less on a stoneskin cast where a bigger stoneskin from Errant/Mahatma Slops is better anyway? MNK is a Melee job plain and simple, it Chi's things mainly if its kited or if the specific mob you're fighting shouldn't need any more TP than its already getting. But a MNK does not Chi everything in an HNMLS.

[Priran]

Why not Mahatma then? Also has Enm-

Mahatma isn't cheap as dirt.

It's likely the choral cannions +1 would lend to that more than the seraweels, but that's neither here nor there, you cant resist a buff anyway.

Way to miss the point?

[Ryko]

it Chi's things mainly if its kited or if the specific mob you're fighting shouldn't need any more TP than its already getting

I know when chi blasting is more beneficial to a scenario and when it isn't. As you mentioned, that leaves a grand total of maybe... 5-6 HNMs total that you'd see a monk meleeing on (4 gods, fafnir [and even that's debatable but I'll just stick to the concept that sometimes it wants to be a whore and sometimes it wants to cooperate to give you a bone), and aspid), definitely the lesser of the 2 situations and, as I said, when's the last time you saw a monk meleeing on any of those mobs? When's the last time your LS told a monk "Hey throw on some knucks and get to work buddy"?

Way to miss the point?

Way to not have one, my response was totally relevant to everything you said in that one poorly thought out sentence.

[Lockecole]

You're seriously trying to make the argument that a republic subligar is about as less useful compared to melee hose and shura pants that those 2 are compared to byakko's haidate? As for how minimally useful haidate are to a bard, I already accepted that. My point is (has been, and will continue to be) that a monk's melee capability doesnt mean shit to you. I don't really even care if you're in the same LS, that monk punching a little more and critting a little more means nothing to your LS in their day to day HNM functions. At the very worst it's 2 people lotting on a piece that they want to feel better about themselves that will show little to no use to your LS as a whole, what's the big deal.

That's your opinion, but when you have a WHOLE LS of WHMs with Novio earrings, SAMS with Ninurta Sashes, BRDs with Byakko's Haidates, PLDs wearing full HP gear and Crimson, and let me know how that setup holds up compared to an alliance CORRECTLY geared up in appropriate gear.
We're not talking about ONE situation, about ONE MNK's DoT....we're talking about a principle, a principle which if you don't set, will show in how your LS ends up succeeding in fighting things. If you think that skill is the only reason that seperates 9 people killing something that 40 people wipe to, then you're wrong. Gear isn't as unimportant as people make it out to be.

[Priran]

My point is (has been, and will continue to be) that a monk's melee capability doesnt mean shit to you.

A MNK's melee capability has more potential to benefit your LS than 1 second off song recast.

[Priran]

Way to not have one, my response was totally relevant to everything you said in that one poorly thought out sentence.

I don't really remember saying you could resist a buff. Let's check:
"You don't need faster recast if your shit isn't resisted."

Shit, I didn't.

Elegy landing will have more of an impact on your LS's ability than being able to recast it 1 second faster.

[Heian]

My point is (has been, and will continue to be) that a monk's melee capability doesnt mean shit to you.

A MNK's melee capability has more potential to benefit your LS than 1 second off song recast.

Yes because everyone melee's HNM with MNK...oh wait...