Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Bill

[Mekami]

Tonko, I love how your generalizations are miss-aimed.

Foreign relation issues are the fault of UN Ambassador man whose name I'm drawing a blank ><

And Condoleeza Rice.

Not Bush.

Ability to speak english well is not a necessity for the president. Good thing? Yes. Necesesary, no.

If you think Iraq is unjustified, well, that's what you think, but there are those of us that think that democracy in a place that has never had it before is justification enough.

And I love how your loyalty is blind, much like most organized religion.

There are literally hundreds of small countries all around the world that don't have democratic governments. If that's all the "justification" that we need to violently invade, and restructure their governments, why haven't we don't it to everyone?

Why pick Iraq first?

Oil.

We don't go after China or South Korea because they'd just nuke us into multiple glass craters.

That, and they don't have Oil. Which also takes care of the hundreds of other piss ant countries that don't do things democratically.

Wow, what a moron.

Firstly; the need to violently invade was caused by the Taliban regime. Do you think they'd just let us walk in and change things? I don't think so.

Why haven't we done it to everyone? What time have we had? What resources do we have to be everywhere at once? What support do we have from the american people int his war itself? How are we supposed to carry on doing this if we get such a violent reaction to this one?

China is a communist, but westernizing state; their improving economy is being directed in the proper way to create welfare for all.

South Korea is on our side. North Korea has 4-7 nuclear missiles without great launch capability. All those tests? If you read about them, they failed miserably.

Maybe if you weren't so "blindly faithful" to your Anti-Bush sentiment caused by listening to Green Day and the left-wing media blowing that issue out of proportion, you'd realize that.

[Aurin]

What we need is some EUs to invade the US and stop the fast food crisis that the US is suffering from.

That is pretty much the same thing you are saying and btw the US trying to change Iraq into a "Democratic Nation" made it worse off than it was before.

[Xavier]

The Taliban was in Afgan, not Iraq genius. Nobody has said that Afgan wasn't worth attacking.

China is responsible for some truly horrofic violations of human rights, but we can't do shit because they'd be impossible at this point to attack or sanction, on top of their growing influence around the world.

His argument is that if you were to spin the globe and pick the most horrific dictators and violations of human rights, Iraq would not have been the first choice. Oil was the reason to attack them over far more deserving counrties of a revolution.

[Aurin]

The Taliban was in Afgan, not Iraq genius. Nobody has said that Afgan wasn't worth attacking.

China is responsible for some truly horrofic violations of human rights, but we can't do shit because they'd be impossible at this point to attack or sanction, on top of their growing influence around the world.

His argument is that if you were to spin the globe and pick the most horrific dictators and violations of human rights, Iraq would not have been the first choice. Oil was the reason to attack them over far more deserving counrties of a revolution.

Yeah, in fact Iraq probably would have been pretty low on the list of choices.

[Mekami]

Tonko, I love how your generalizations are miss-aimed.

Foreign relation issues are the fault of UN Ambassador man whose name I'm drawing a blank ><

And Condoleeza Rice.

Not Bush.

Ability to speak english well is not a necessity for the president. Good thing? Yes. Necesesary, no.

If you think Iraq is unjustified, well, that's what you think, but there are those of us that think that democracy in a place that has never had it before is justification enough.

You'd be naive to think that the final say doesn't fall to the President of the United States.

Those are his advisors, confidants, aides, what have you. They still follow his policy and ideas.

Its the biggest load of bullshit to pretend that imposing a democracy on a people is a great accomplishment. The very idea of it is confusing. How do you give the power to the people if you're forcing them to follow a form of government you say is best? And then you end up with Democracies in the Middle East like Palestine, which has elected a government that the West has called a terrorist organization.

And you mean North Korea Tonko, the South is doing just fine.

The final say doesn't fall to the president. He has nothing to do with the process at all.

There was an issue in .. newsweek? Maybe Time? I think it was Time Magazine. It was about this very same thing, foreign relations and what America's doing. It said while Bush doesn't have the final say in the making of foreign policy, our UN Ambassador is royally fucking things up and Condoleeza rice is doing fantastic. Bush doesn't give them much freedom though, and maybe he's wrong there but in the end the blame lies on the UN Ambassador. Read up on the stupid shit he's doing and you'll have a new target to hate.

Forcing democracy? Do you know how many people in Iraq voted? And what they said, how they felt? Do you remember the picture of them tearing down Saddam Hussein's statute? The voter turnout was much higher than America has ever had; is this proof enough that the government we put in place is better than the one we had? If it isn't, than I don't know what is.

[Tonko]

And of course everything is peacefull and calm in Iraq now

Everyone is happy, and Democracy is working perfectly!

[Xavier]

The final say doesn't fall to the president. He has nothing to do with the process at all.

There was an issue in .. newsweek? Maybe Time? I think it was Time Magazine. It was about this very same thing, foreign relations and what America's doing. It said while Bush doesn't have the final say in the making of foreign policy, our UN Ambassador is royally fucking things up and Condoleeza rice is doing fantastic. Bush doesn't give them much freedom though, and maybe he's wrong there but in the end the blame lies on the UN Ambassador. Read up on the stupid shit he's doing and you'll have a new target to hate.

Oh god, oh god, I'm drawing this huge blank. I can't seem to recall who appointed Rice...oh wait, the President. Don't give me that crap. If the President didn't like what was happening, he has the authority to fire and reappoint.

Forcing democracy? Do you know how many people in Iraq voted? And what they said, how they felt? Do you remember the picture of them tearing down Saddam Hussein's statute? The voter turnout was much higher than America has ever had; is this proof enough that the government we put in place is better than the one we had? If it isn't, than I don't know what is.

Do you know what the Iraqi's want more than anything else? America out of their country. Do you see the continual insurgant attacks through the country? Voter turnout doesn't prove that something is better. It just shows that the people want to control their lives. Somehow destabilizing a region and then watching them vote to take control of their government to kick us out doesn't seem that surprising.

[Mekami]

The Taliban was in Afgan, not Iraq genius. Nobody has said that Afgan wasn't worth attacking.

China is responsible for some truly horrofic violations of human rights, but we can't do shit because they'd be impossible at this point to attack or sanction, on top of their growing influence around the world.

His argument is that if you were to spin the globe and pick the most horrific dictators and violations of human rights, Iraq would not have been the first choice. Oil was the reason to attack them over far more deserving counrties of a revolution.

Taliban
Al'qaeda

These two groups are powerful through the middle-east. Those that say they are just in Afghan are mis-informed... they are present in most middle-eastern countries.

Look, China doesn't have as big of a problem as the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST. The Middle East is such a hotbed for violence and terrorism that if it doesn't get solved... it'll just last forever. And way more people will be killed than in China. It's just a priority for that reason; the obvious, visible, prominent amount of violence and opression in those countries.

Need I refer to the thread about how childish and stupid the war int he middle east is? Yet, it has to be stopped somehow.

It's just a step.

We can fix the world...

if we get the support from the world, from the nation, from the people.

We have that power, because we're the most powerful nation in the world.

This is not naivete, this is optimism with a hint of realism. Look what we've done; we're capable of much more if it's done right.


DISCLAIMER HERE GUYS

I don't agree with everything Bush does.
Most, yes.
Some, no.
I'm not a Bush fanatic.
But I want to see more of this from America.
More liberation.

[Mekami]

The final say doesn't fall to the president. He has nothing to do with the process at all.

There was an issue in .. newsweek? Maybe Time? I think it was Time Magazine. It was about this very same thing, foreign relations and what America's doing. It said while Bush doesn't have the final say in the making of foreign policy, our UN Ambassador is royally fucking things up and Condoleeza rice is doing fantastic. Bush doesn't give them much freedom though, and maybe he's wrong there but in the end the blame lies on the UN Ambassador. Read up on the stupid shit he's doing and you'll have a new target to hate.

Oh god, oh god, I'm drawing this huge blank. I can't seem to recall who appointed Rice...oh wait, the President. Don't give me that crap. If the President didn't like what was happening, he has the authority to fire and reappoint.

Forcing democracy? Do you know how many people in Iraq voted? And what they said, how they felt? Do you remember the picture of them tearing down Saddam Hussein's statute? The voter turnout was much higher than America has ever had; is this proof enough that the government we put in place is better than the one we had? If it isn't, than I don't know what is.

Do you know what the Iraqi's want more than anything else? America out of their country. Do you see the continual insurgant attacks through the country? Voter turnout doesn't prove that something is better. It just shows that the people want to control their lives. Somehow destabilizing a region and then watching them vote to take control of their government to kick us out doesn't seem that surprising.

Great, so firing and reappointing is the answer.

When a huge number of Americans say he's been firing and reappointing too much, too badly.

Yes, a great answer... keep doing the wrong thing instead of fixing the thing you have.


If they want us out? Great! When they can take care of themselves, we'll leave. I wholeheartedly believe that we'll be out as soon as their government, military, and economy are stable.

If not? I'm wrong.

[Aurin]

The Taliban was in Afgan, not Iraq genius. Nobody has said that Afgan wasn't worth attacking.

China is responsible for some truly horrofic violations of human rights, but we can't do shit because they'd be impossible at this point to attack or sanction, on top of their growing influence around the world.

His argument is that if you were to spin the globe and pick the most horrific dictators and violations of human rights, Iraq would not have been the first choice. Oil was the reason to attack them over far more deserving counrties of a revolution.

Taliban
Al'qaeda

These two groups are powerful through the middle-east. Those that say they are just in Afghan are mis-informed... they are present in most middle-eastern countries.

Look, China doesn't have as big of a problem as the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST. The Middle East is such a hotbed for violence and terrorism that if it doesn't get solved... it'll just last forever. And way more people will be killed than in China. It's just a priority for that reason; the obvious, visible, prominent amount of violence and opression in those countries.

Need I refer to the thread about how childish and stupid the war int he middle east is? Yet, it has to be stopped somehow.

It's just a step.

We can fix the world...

if we get the support from the world, from the nation, from the people.

We have that power, because we're the most powerful nation in the world.

This is not naivete, this is optimism with a hint of realism. Look what we've done; we're capable of much more if it's done right.


DISCLAIMER HERE GUYS

I don't agree with everything Bush does.
Most, yes.
Some, no.
I'm not a Bush fanatic.
But I want to see more of this from America.
More liberation.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/...111220158_.jpg

[Raivyn]

Tonko, I love how your generalizations are miss-aimed.

Foreign relation issues are the fault of UN Ambassador man whose name I'm drawing a blank ><

And Condoleeza Rice.

Not Bush.

Ability to speak english well is not a necessity for the president. Good thing? Yes. Necesesary, no.

If you think Iraq is unjustified, well, that's what you think, but there are those of us that think that democracy in a place that has never had it before is justification enough.

Some parts of Africa are 100,000 times worse than Iraq.. but Iraq has a surplus of one thing Africa dosent... Oil!

Actually, Iraq has a surplus in many things that Africa doesn't. Things like oil, terrorist connections, WMD capability and intent, islamic fundamentalism. But hey let's just forget about all those other things. They're obviously not a factor in any decision making process at all.

[Xavier]

We have that power, because we're the most powerful nation in the world.

Oh god.

Taliban
Al'qaeda

These two groups are powerful through the middle-east. Those that say they are just in Afghan are mis-informed... they are present in most middle-eastern countries.

The Taliban was the government that was controlling Afgan. What the fuck are you smoking? Invading Afgan was a good idea. We dismantled the Taliban (not very well, the Taliban just reclaimed two cities in Afgan and forced the new government to flee), which was a significant ally to Al'qaeda.

Iraq had no connection to Al'qaeda or the Taliban. After we invaded Iraq, Al'qaeda moved in BECAUSE of the chaos we created, not the other way around.

China has a GIGANTIC problem, and FYI, they're fast paced to be the most powerful nation on the planent. On top of their gigantic population, economy, military, they're a communist nation with no regard to human rights. Iraq wasn't in a position to start World War III. China is. The Middle East is a priority because its not as suicidal as fixing China.

[Xavier]

Great, so firing and reappointing is the answer.

When a huge number of Americans say he's been firing and reappointing too much, too badly.

Yes, a great answer... keep doing the wrong thing instead of fixing the thing you have.

Or you could just show the good judgment of not appointing failures in the first place. How is fixing the problem by removing incompetance the wrong thing? Its just a shame you can't fire yourself for doing a shitty job without looking stupid.

[Tonko]

Need I refer to the thread about how childish and stupid the war int he middle east is? Yet, it has to be stopped somehow.

It's just a step.

We can fix the world...

if we get the support from the world, from the nation, from the people.

We have that power, because we're the most powerful nation in the world.

This is not naivete, this is optimism with a hint of realism. Look what we've done; we're capable of much more if it's done right.

This IS naiveté of the highest degree. No county is going to bow down and kiss our asses because we delivered them from some horrible despot, or forcibaly reworked their system of government.

100% of Americans supporting going, forcibly, into other countries, to restructure their governments to suit our own vision? Are you clinically insane? Or just delusional?

It'll be wholesale slaughter of our troops, and will earn us the (increased) enmity of the rest of the world. Most of them already hate our country for making unilateral decisions like this in the past.

The Iraq War, and Vietnam have illustrated that violently going into another country is NOT a good idea. Ever. There's no "win" here. Our troops die. It costs our country money which we don't have (Y HALO THAR budget deficit) and ruins foreign relations.

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO BABYSIT THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Let the Middle East turn itself into a smoldering pile of burning corpses for all we should care. It's horrific, it's violent, it sucks for the innocent caught in the crossfire, but it's not our battle to worry about.

[Raivyn]

As for this whole bill - I don't agree with Bush and I'm sad to see this vetoed. I hope it gets overturned, although it may not.

But even so I think many of you are missing the finer points of this bill and the president's position on stem cell research.

Personally I need to do some research on this topic as well, but a few things that are being overlooked are;

a) Funding for medical projects is generally facilitated by the private sector, not the government. This bill increases government funding, but does nothing to the private sector. The private sector is still free to do as it pleases with donated materials.

b) The president's entire position and the language of the bill itself - I know Bush supports stem cell research but wants to err on the side of caution when doing it. Basically if it could possibly be human life then it's not ok, since it's such a touchy issue at the moment.

c) Other sources of stem cells for research.

[Enkidu]

Why do people think that there isn't oil in Africa?

[Raivyn]

Let the Middle East turn itself into a smoldering pile of burning corpses for all we should care. It's horrific, it's violent, it sucks for the innocent caught in the crossfire, but it's not our battle to worry about.

Too bad we can't do anything about the fact that they hate the zionist west besides annihilating them. It really is our battle to worry about, they're out to get us. Sooo... big disagreement with you there.

[Mekami]

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO BABYSIT THE REST OF THE WORLD.

So, if we were to back off and do nothing for the world, worry only about our selves while everywhere else there was violence and suffering...

You'd be happy sitting at your house behind your personal computer drinking a coke and having a good time, wouldn't you.

Seems very selfish to me.

[Xavier]

Federal funding would significantly speed up the research in the US.

My entire problem with his pro-life stance is that hes literally choosing to throw away the stem cells than use them in research.

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO BABYSIT THE REST OF THE WORLD.

So, if we were to back off and do nothing for the world, worry only about our selves while everywhere else there was violence and suffering...

You'd be happy sitting at your house behind your personal computer drinking a coke and having a good time, wouldn't you.

Seems very selfish to me.

Seems to me that its the international communities responsiblity to police the world, not a single country. Seems to me that the United Nations is supposed to be doing this. Not saying they do a very good job, but the world should be governed by everyone, not just America.

[Tonko]

If they want us out? Great! When they can take care of themselves, we'll leave. I wholeheartedly believe that we'll be out as soon as their government, military, and economy are stable.

If not? I'm wrong.

It will never be stable as long as we're there.

Catch 22 much?