Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Bill

[Raivyn]

Why do people think that there isn't oil in Africa?

Because there's nowhere near as much as there is in the middle east and they're not on the production level that the middle east is and their governments are typically involved in civil war and really only care about exporting diamonds.

[Raivyn]

Federal funding would significantly speed up the research in the US.

My entire problem with his pro-life stance is that hes literally choosing to throw away the stem cells than use them in research.

Like I said, I really want to see stem cell research go forward. Lemme educate myself a little better on this subject before I return to this whole topic.

[Raivyn]

[
Iraq had no connection to Al'qaeda or the Taliban. After we invaded Iraq, Al'qaeda moved in BECAUSE of the chaos we created, not the other way around.

China has a GIGANTIC problem, and FYI, they're fast paced to be the most powerful nation on the planent. On top of their gigantic population, economy, military, they're a communist nation with no regard to human rights. Iraq wasn't in a position to start World War III. China is. The Middle East is a priority because its not as suicidal as fixing China.

Iraq and Al'qaeda did have pre-existing ties prior to invasion, they were just minimal. But if you think that Iraq couldn't have sold them a NBC for big bucks then you're very much mistaken.

Oh and yeah, China and Russia are the only two nations in the world that could reasonably challenge the U.S. - but we're not stupid enough to get involved in a ground conflict without using tactical nukes on their superior numbers. Our weaponry vastly outclasses even these two nations though. We have some serious shit.

Our MDS is lookin nice though, and that would severely limit the threat they could pose to the nation.

Bleh - the issue with the middle east, and korea, gets more and more complicated when you start considering their business options with China Russia and Germany.

[Tonko]

Stem Cell research holds the key to curing so much. Bush prevents it due to religious ideals. Did you see those vote #s in the house and senate?

On Tuesday evening, the House approved the "fetal farming" bill 425-0
"Fetal farming" -- passed the Senate in 100-0 votes.

And yet, Bush seems to dissagree with all of them. Unanimous votes, vetoed because one guy can't pull his ass off of his head long enough to see the light.

[Xavier]

I want to see Michae J. Fox stop shaking. I want(ed) to see Superman fly again. I want debilitating diseases like MS to be a thing of the past. The quality of life for the people already living seems far more important to me than that of a cell whos future involves being thrown away after sitting at a clinic.

No research has ever seemed so promising on eradicating some of the most devistating conditions humans develop, and yet its religion influcing polictics under the guise of morality thats preventing us from serving the already ailing's quality of life.

The reason that stem-cell research will eventually win out is that even the religious will turn to it when its their parents who have conditions that this research could eventually cure. Its one thing to talk about something that doesn't affect you, something else entirely when it does.

[Enkidu]

Why do people think that there isn't oil in Africa?

Because there's nowhere near as much as there is in the middle east and they're not on the production level that the middle east is and their governments are typically involved in civil war and really only care about exporting diamonds.

Africa probably has more oil then all of the middle east combined. There are oil reserves in Africa that we know about right now that rival the oil fields of Kuwait, and most of Africa hasn't even been searched for oil yet.

Not at the production level? Of course that's true, but people need to think clearly about these things. In a war for oil - what they claim this is - you'd think they'd want to minimize expenditures, right? Well they aren't in Iraq and they knew that from the start.

The US, if it wanted too, could pay off drug lords in Africa to keep things "civil" and build huge oil production plants anywhere we'd like. If we really wanted oil, we could get tons of it as cheap as you can imagine. It'd surely be bloody oil and I definitely wouldn't be for it (although I'd love to see 99cent/gallon gas again), but we could do it if all we cared about was oil...

[Raivyn]

I want to see Michae J. Fox stop shaking. I want(ed) to see Superman fly again. I want debilitating diseases like MS to be a thing of the past. The quality of life for the people already living seems far more important to me than that of a cell whos future involves being thrown away after sitting at a clinic.

No research has ever seemed so promising on eradicating some of the most devistating conditions humans develop, and yet its religion influcing polictics under the guise of morality thats preventing us from serving the already ailing's quality of life.

The reason that stem-cell research will eventually win out is that even the religious will turn to it when its their parents who have conditions that this research could eventually cure. Its one thing to talk about something that doesn't affect you, something else entirely when it does.

I really don't see this as a religious issue - I don't get where you're pulling that from. This is a life and living thing. The debate regarding the 'life' status of embryos - so to speak - is still undecided and unsupported by science in either direction. It's kind of like innocent until proven guilty - human and alive until proven otherwise.

I don't see why one would think this is religious in nature. Even those who are not religious believe that human life has some sanctity and must be preserved.

[Xavier]

But if you think that Iraq couldn't have sold them a NBC for big bucks then you're very much mistaken.

I think anyone could have sold them weapons, not just Iraq. Which goes back to the point of why was Iraq such a priority?

Oh and yeah, China and Russia are the only two nations in the world that could reasonably challenge the U.S. - but we're not stupid enough to get involved in a ground conflict without using tactical nukes on their superior numbers. Our weaponry vastly outclasses even these two nations though. We have some serious shit.

Well yeah, we'd almost certainly rely on our arsenal in that kind of situation, but my point was that rather than tackle an enemy who would seriously challenge the military, we targeted a country that we toppled in a couple of days. The aftermath is obviously the real challenge, but for instance, you had North Korea saying they had nuclear weapons and we won't even talk to them without 6 party negotiations, and yet Iran was suspected of having them and we invaded.

Our MDS is lookin nice though, and that would severely limit the threat they could pose to the nation.

I thought our MDS system was in question? I assume thats Missle Defense System. Wasn't everyone worried that we'd have trouble shooting down a missle launched by the North Koreans?

Bleh - the issue with the middle east, and korea, gets more and more complicated when you start considering their business options with China Russia and Germany.

Sure does.

[Raivyn]

Why do people think that there isn't oil in Africa?

Because there's nowhere near as much as there is in the middle east and they're not on the production level that the middle east is and their governments are typically involved in civil war and really only care about exporting diamonds.

Africa probably has more oil then all of the middle east combined. ]There are oil reserves in Africa that we know about right now that rival the oil fields of Kuwait, and most of Africa hasn't even been searched for oil yet.

not sure on that one.
[quote:93bbf]
Not at the production level? Of course that's true, but people need to think clearly about these things. In a war for oil - what they claim this is - you'd think they'd want to minimize expenditures, right? Well they aren't in Iraq and they knew that from the start.

Who's claiming it's a war for oil? The sentence above is actually an argument against that theory.

The US, if it wanted too, could pay off drug lords in Africa to keep things "civil" and build huge oil production plants anywhere we'd like. If we really wanted oil, we could get tons of it as cheap as you can imagine. It'd surely be bloody oil and I definitely wouldn't be for it (although I'd love to see 99cent/gallon gas again), but we could do it if all we cared about was oil...

[/quote:93bbf]

Again kind of contradicting the whole 'Iraq is a war for oil thing'. I guess if you're right about there being tons of oil in Africa then we could do that but then we'd be on the moral level of oh say, the taliban.

[Raivyn]

But if you think that Iraq couldn't have sold them a NBC for big bucks then you're very much mistaken.

I think anyone could have sold them weapons, not just Iraq. Which goes back to the point of why was Iraq such a priority?

Oh and yeah, China and Russia are the only two nations in the world that could reasonably challenge the U.S. - but we're not stupid enough to get involved in a ground conflict without using tactical nukes on their superior numbers. Our weaponry vastly outclasses even these two nations though. We have some serious shit.

Well yeah, we'd almost certainly rely on our arsenal in that kind of situation, but my point was that rather than tackle an enemy who would seriously challenge the military, we targeted a country that we toppled in a couple of days. The aftermath is obviously the real challenge, but for instance, you had North Korea saying they had nuclear weapons and we won't even talk to them without 6 party negotiations, and yet Iran was suspected of having them and we invaded.

Our MDS is lookin nice though, and that would severely limit the threat they could pose to the nation.

I thought our MDS system was in question? I assume thats Missle Defense System. Wasn't everyone worried that we'd have trouble shooting down a missle launched by the North Koreans?

Bleh - the issue with the middle east, and korea, gets more and more complicated when you start considering their business options with China Russia and Germany.

Sure does.

Holy quote-tree batman. I'll get to this later I've gotta jet.

[Eaglestrike]

About the Iraq war, let me quote from some soldiers over there that play FFXI:

Unless you have actually been over there and seen wtf is going on, rather than you yourself (this is speaking to anyone and everyone who says shit about it) are just speaking out of your ass, and quoting something you yourself read off cnn.com or read in some fascist magazine. The news isn't going to tell the good shit we are doing over there, building a political system, training them to protect themselves, building schools, and all the other shit we do over there. Sure there are some who don't want us over there, but there are some who do, there are soldiers who don't understand why we are over there and others who do. Yea its a f#ckd up war, and we've made mistakes over there, but I'd much rather carry my ass over there and fight than be fighting it over here in my own backyard. Things are ugly over their because of the type of war this is, this is a war unlike any our country has ever fought. The people over there who do want us there are scared, and killed by their own people for accepting us. I don't know what will happen over there anymore than the next person, but I believe we are doing the right thing by being over their.

I have worked with Canadien troops, German, Italian, Netherlands, England, France, Turkey, and Lithuania. Many of which had been to Iraq and none of them thought this war was stupid for any reason.

i would be just another california hippie college student spouting off at the mouth about stuff i had seen on CNN if i hadnt joined the military and essentially been forced to do my own research. too many americans jump on the "war is bad" bandwagon without thinking it through.

Three different people.

Honestly how much can you take from news stations about the war? They're going to show what gets the most viewers, horrible stuff. People seem to enjoy shitty stuff happening and critical things being said than good things happening. I'm not saying that news are liberal or conservative, just that it's the news and they show what gets ratings.

I'd prefer to see the UN helping us in Iraq. I'd prefer we finish in Iraq *when we're done* and move on to countries that need us more, say African countries. I think we will, honestly. Every president has some military action during their term(s).

As for Stem Cell research...ehhh, I'd most likely disagree with the veto, but I'd want to learn more about it first.

[Xavier]

"America was founded on the principle that we are all created equal and endowed by our creator with the right to life," he added. "We can advance the cause of science while upholding this founding promise. We can harness the promise of technology without becoming slaves to technology. And we can ensure that science serves the cause of humanity, instead of the other way around."

Somehow bringing up the creator as an argument against stem-cell research flagged it as a religious debate to me.

[Enkidu]

Why do people think that there isn't oil in Africa?

Because there's nowhere near as much as there is in the middle east and they're not on the production level that the middle east is and their governments are typically involved in civil war and really only care about exporting diamonds.

Africa probably has more oil then all of the middle east combined. ]There are oil reserves in Africa that we know about right now that rival the oil fields of Kuwait, and most of Africa hasn't even been searched for oil yet.

not sure on that one.
[quote:dad65]
Not at the production level? Of course that's true, but people need to think clearly about these things. In a war for oil - what they claim this is - you'd think they'd want to minimize expenditures, right? Well they aren't in Iraq and they knew that from the start.

Who's claiming it's a war for oil? The sentence above is actually an argument against that theory.

[quote:dad65]
The US, if it wanted too, could pay off drug lords in Africa to keep things "civil" and build huge oil production plants anywhere we'd like. If we really wanted oil, we could get tons of it as cheap as you can imagine. It'd surely be bloody oil and I definitely wouldn't be for it (although I'd love to see 99cent/gallon gas again), but we could do it if all we cared about was oil...

Again kind of contradicting the whole 'Iraq is a war for oil thing'. I guess if you're right about there being tons of oil in Africa then we could do that but then we'd be on the moral level of oh say, the taliban.[/quote:dad65][/quote:dad65]Um.. I'm arguing against the "the war is for oil" stance, not sure what you've been reading .

Re-read please, my point is that an Iraq war for oil makes no sense at all since there are many places in the world (see Africa) where we could get cheaper oil and the people wouldn't do shit about it.

I'm just tired of seeing the same old "Why does u think we is not in Africa? OIL duh rotfl idiot" arguments...

[Raineer]

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO BABYSIT THE REST OF THE WORLD.

So, if we were to back off and do nothing for the world, worry only about our selves while everywhere else there was violence and suffering...

You'd be happy sitting at your house behind your personal computer drinking a coke and having a good time, wouldn't you.

Seems very selfish to me.

China doesn't seem to take much interest in 'fixing' the rest of the world, and like Xavier said they'll be #1 (imo they're already there or damn close).

Anyone could act like the police of the world, why does it need to be us?

[Warthog]

China doesn't seem to take much interest in 'fixing' the rest of the world, and like Xavier said they'll be #1 (imo they're already there or damn close).

Anyone could act like the police of the world, why does it need to be us?

As stated in the Declaration of Independence...

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

I feel these statements were addressed for the world as a whole, despite the document's pertinence to the time period of it's creation. These concepts, regardless of how prevalent they are today, are still widely accepted, and utilized.

[Aerandir]

We can fix the world...

if we get the support from the world, from the nation, from the people.

We have that power, because we're the most powerful nation in the world.

I know I'm a bit late, but I just had to LOL at this.

Seriously, that's something I'd expect to hear in Team America: World Police.

Fix your own problems before you want to go about fixing everyone elses.

[Enkidu]

China doesn't seem to take much interest in 'fixing' the rest of the world, and like Xavier said they'll be #1 (imo they're already there or damn close).

Anyone could act like the police of the world, why does it need to be us?

Number 1 in what exactly? In 20 years there wont be any drinkable water in China because of their industrialization and lack of concern for proper waste disposal. It's a shithole of a country, but makes nice big numbers for the sunday paper.

Of course that wasn't your point, just saying . Anyways it'd be nice to not have to police the world, but with nuclear weapons don't you kind of feel that it's necessary for one or many countries to take up the job? Ignorance is bliss until a nuclear warhead is shoved up your ass.

[Eaglestrike]

We can fix the world...

if we get the support from the world, from the nation, from the people.

We have that power, because we're the most powerful nation in the world.

I know I'm a bit late, but I just had to LOL at this.

Seriously, that's something I'd expect to hear in Team America: World Police.

Fix your own problems before you want to go about fixing everyone elses.

We should've spent more time fixing the Great Depression and shouldn't have bothered going to war in Europe...

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I'd rather NOT live in a democracy like Iraq's.

You don't understand why America's democracy works. Its because we are- or were at least- decently well informed and diverse. Democracy in the middle east is, right now, an awful idea. Its so fucking easy for oppressive regimes to get votes through misleading and threatening people. Its also easy to get people riled up to vote stupidly in a democracy (IE: don't read the job description, vote for me because I hate gays and am fun to drink with.) Once an infrastructure is set up to keep the citizens up to date, it can work, but until then a government of people appointed to positions of power would be better.

We should've spent more time fixing the Great Depression and shouldn't have bothered going to war in Europe...

Saddam's regime WASN'T trying to take over the world. They were happy opressing people in their bubble. The Nazis wanted the entire world in their vision.

[Demetrick]

Eeesh, touchy subject, just like abortions...

"Abortions for all!" Booooo~

"Very wel then, No abortions for anyone!" Booooo~

"Ok, Abortions for some, small miniature flags for all of us!" yay!

simpsons > all

Haha! I love those crazy aliens.
Someone on the Colbert Report talked about how because of this, alot of the newer breakthroughs in medical technology are going to be discovered in countries like China... so our medical tech market might, instead of being a world leader start to really fall behind.