point systems

[Alleya]

You fucked over your warrirors and the LS was weaker longer.

[Aodh]

Step 1: Create a fair points system
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Everyone's happy!

In that example, everything in this thread is Step 2, what makes a system "Fair". But yeah, no matter what 'Step 2' is as long as the general LS feels that it's 'fair', it doesn't really matter.

[Ryko]

If you need a WAR with an adaberk that badly then have the "BRD" show up as WAR then. If you need a BRD moreso than you need the warrior in an adaberk then you didn't fuck over a damn thing.

I get the whole "use and function" angle but the bottom line is that BRD is the reason your tanks didn't eat the floor and likely the reason you guys didn't wipe to nidhogg in the first place, if he's showing up as much as someone whose only argument is that they don't go out of their way to be more beneficial to the group as a whole then tough shit.

[Alleya]

Ah yes, the melees deserve nothing argument. Reminds me of the good 'ol days in SB.

[Ryko]

Not what I was getting at in the slightest, seeing as how honestly 90% of what our LS does as a whole can be described as much more beneficial for melees than mages. If anything that's the first time I've ever been accused of saying that the melees don't deserve anything.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

If the melees show up as much as the BRD it shouldn't be an issue anyways.

[aurik]

Step 1: Create a fair points system
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Everyone's happy!

In that example, everything in this thread is Step 2, what makes a system "Fair". But yeah, no matter what 'Step 2' is as long as the general LS feels that it's 'fair', it doesn't really matter.

So what you're saying that if the people are reasonably happy under a divine distribution system, and feel that their objections, when they have them, are listened to and taken into consideration, then we're all good?

Because that's step 2, you know, in both systems. In the future when you raise a criticism about a system you oppose, you should make sure it doesn't apply to the system you are a proponent for...otherwise your post is just clogging the tubes.

[rydiu]

That argument can easily be turned around. Why shouldn't the most beneficial player be given big ticket items first? If you have two people with similar attendance, one with WAR and RNG as their only jobs, and the other has BRD and WAR but pretty much exclusively comes to events on BRD, who should get the Adaman Hauberk first?

They should get same shot at it....in the long run the ultimate success of your LS is not how many adaberks you have, its how well you work together and overall player skill..

Equip comes far behind all those other things...a skilled LS that works as a team can easily take down any of the kings or any HNM in the game using nothing but NQ equipment bought on the AH for cheap.

[Septimus]

Setting up a solid set of rules once and *maybe* modifying them later > having to enter data on a daily (or even weekly) basis. It's not even a matter of time required, it's just plain annoying having to do stuff outside of FFXI in order to play FFXI.

and why would somebody bitch about an item nobody wants? If you get an item merely because "nobody else wanted it" it has absolutely no negative effect on you.

Step 1: Steal Underwear.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit!

or more to Faranim's application...
Step 1: Set up solid rules.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Everyone's happy!

Using "Setting up a solid set of rules once" as a fundimental base is still missing step 2, or the actions/details of step 1 and how they are implimented.

Most of us "point guys" aren't able to see how you can objectivly create a set of rules without adding in some level of opinion/bias. If you'd like to 'win' this argument, then you have to show us the details of how you make decisions which are free of opinions and bias which benifit the LS the most.

How is setting up a point system any more or less prone to be free of opinion and bias? Why are some events worth more points than others? Do you get more points for winning a king pull on the first window or losing it on the seventh? Do people get more points for coming on a job that they hate for the good of the linkshell?

You opinion of what different events are worth may not be shared by other people. You may consider a point system to be more objective, but in the end, that is merely your opinion.

[Aelfinn]

team & skill =/= manaburning with ump-teen blms, then rotating them out as they run out of mp and/or die.

[Ryko]

There's only one thing worse than a snappy comeback, and that's a pointless detour. This fall on the USA network, aelfinn is the non-sequitur.

[rydiu]

team & skill =/= manaburning with ump-teen blms, then rotating them out as they run out of mp and/or die.

lol.. another valefor wizardry hater

If all we ever do is manaburn howcome we all have cerb and hydra titles? ok then, stfu.

[Septimus]

team & skill =/= manaburning with ump-teen blms, then rotating them out as they run out of mp and/or die.

lol.. another valefor wizardry hater

If all we ever do is manaburn howcome we all have cerb and hydra titles? ok then, stfu.

No, seriously. Why are you still here?

[BRP]

That argument can easily be turned around. Why shouldn't the most beneficial player be given big ticket items first? If you have two people with similar attendance, one with WAR and RNG as their only jobs, and the other has BRD and WAR but pretty much exclusively comes to events on BRD, who should get the Adaman Hauberk first?

They should get same shot at it....in the long run the ultimate success of your LS is not how many adaberks you have, its how well you work together and overall player skill..

Equip comes far behind all those other things...a skilled LS that works as a team can easily take down any of the kings or any HNM in the game using nothing but NQ equipment bought on the AH for cheap.

You are dumbest motherfucker to ever post here. Why do you think for a second anyone cares what you have to say?

[rydiu]

No, seriously. Why are you still here?

Same reason anybody else is here...only I'm not being a total hater by trying to derail threads with interserver drama.

[Ryko]

Technically aelfinn's comment could be taken as a general response (albeit irrelevant) to the way most HNMs are killed nowadays in reference to your comment and not a personal shot against you so bringing up specifics like you did sort of is bringing up server drama.

[rydiu]

Technically aelfinn's comment could be taken as a general response (albeit irrelevant) to the way most HNMs are killed nowadays in reference to your comment and not a personal shot against you so bringing up specifics like you did sort of is bringing up server drama.

True, however this whole thread is interspersed with people from valefor trying to take retarded shots at me and my LS, maybe its naive of me to think he took the time to actually read the whole thread and is jumping on the bandwagon.... lol

[Aodh]

How is setting up a point system any more or less prone to be free of opinion and bias? Why are some events worth more points than others? Do you get more points for winning a king pull on the first window or losing it on the seventh? Do people get more points for coming on a job that they hate for the good of the linkshell?

You opinion of what different events are worth may not be shared by other people. You may consider a point system to be more objective, but in the end, that is merely your opinion.

Point systems can be equally unfair if constructed improperly. It depends on the Linkshell/System what is actually worth point, then how much. For example we award more points for actually getting Ullikummi because of how hard it is to get claim over killing Faust for example. The weightings of events may be unfair, but that's not bias, especially not when it comes to drops.

When we setup out point system, we used a principal based on time involved and created values from there. These were then proposed to the LS and adopted as the values. If people feel they aren't being properly rewarded for events, then we put up a proposal to change the values and let the members discuss it. So the value or weight of the contributions are decided and agree'd upon by the members. Then they're free to decide for themselves how much they want an item and bid on it.

Both systems are essencially the same in that they're trying to get the items to the people who deserve it the most. Point systems quantify the contributions and put it out for everyone to explicitly see. 'Divine Choice' systems do the same thing without the tangable contributions to back it up, but then it also lets intangables to be taken into account (like coming on a job you hate). You quantify it and sum it in your head, we do it on paper.

So what you're saying that if the people are reasonably happy under a divine distribution system, and feel that their objections, when they have them, are listened to and taken into consideration, then we're all good?

Because that's step 2, you know, in both systems. In the future when you raise a criticism about a system you oppose, you should make sure it doesn't apply to the system you are a proponent for...otherwise your post is just clogging the tubes.

This whole thread (beyond carrying my very slow work day) is about the benifits of the different systems, I'm sorry that they also have similarities. I'm trying to highlight one side of the argument (the points side, which I know) and trying to encourage the other side ('Divine Choice', which I've never experianced first-hand) to present their case as well. There are challenges in both systems, and there are work-arounds too. If someone like the OP wants to create a 'Fair' point system, hopefully this discussion will show them both sides and the advantages/disadvantages of each. The only thing I'm "Opposed" to is an un-fair system.

[Jeryhn]

Technically aelfinn's comment could be taken as a general response (albeit irrelevant) to the way most HNMs are killed nowadays in reference to your comment and not a personal shot against you so bringing up specifics like you did sort of is bringing up server drama.

True, however this whole thread is interspersed with people from valefor trying to take retarded shots at me and my LS, maybe its naive of me to think he took the time to actually read the whole thread and is jumping on the bandwagon.... lol

As I recall, this thread is about the viability of point systems when it comes to lotting in LSes, not about you. No one (who matters) fucking cares about you, or subpar Valefor drama.

[Septimus]

No, seriously. Why are you still here?

Same reason anybody else is here...only I'm not being a total hater by trying to derail threads with interserver drama.

Instead of being a hater, you appear to be more of a troll.

And obviously you don't know these forums very well if you are complaining about derails...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...trainWreck.jpg