More thoughts on claim

[Lordwafik]

At last check Flash and Stun were the same level of enmity. If Stun generated less hate then Flash did then I don't see how NIN/DRK could be as good as it is.

I dont think stun is no where near the amount of hate flash is. If it was, that RDM/DRK on tiamat would be down there tanking.

[Sylvrdragon]

I think they're exactly the same. The difference is a PLD sporting anywhere from +10-+40 emnity going against at WORST a DRK with 0 Enmity change, and more often a BLM or RDM/DRK sporting probably -6--10. Its like the difference of a CureIV from a PLD vs a CureIV from a WHM. A PLDs will pull hate off someone elses voke most likely while the WHMs is barely noticed if they're geared properly.

Just like how PLD/RDM tanking works (and yes, it does work), you hold hate by spamming Blind, Bind, Sleep, and Dispel (mostly Blind because of the ~7 second recast), because with so much Enmity, ANYTHING creates a shit load of hate.

[DrObvious]

If 2 people cast the same spell at exactly the same time the world would cease to exist

The chance of their latency being the same is minimal.

At last check Flash and Stun were the same level of enmity. If Stun generated less hate then Flash did then I don't see how NIN/DRK could be as good as it is.

Hate from stun wears off slower so it's easier to build hate?

[further]

Some people in my LS and I got in to this whole argument about a week ago, about enmity effecting claim.


One of our members kept trying to convince me that equipping enmity gear when trying to claim would make a big difference in us claiming or not. The point I was trying to hammer home was: If you don't get to cast on a mob, ie you get target claimed before your spell lands, enmity had nothing to do with anything.

There has been at least one Aspido that popped and had multiple people from multiple shells casting on it and it stayed white till somebody finally got claim on it. In that case, Enmity played a role I imagine, but that is one king out of hundreds... The rest of the time, whoever tags it first gets claim.

As far as what happened at that Aspid, my guess is that 2 people from different alliances casted on it close enough to the same time where it didn't claim to either one of them initially. Either that, or some part of the claim system not wanting you to keep multiple mobs claimed bugged out and somebody in their alliance was fighting an add or something..?

I mean in mathematical terms, it is really impossible for 2 people to cast on something at the EXACT SAME TIME... But maybe depending on the way things/times are rounded off in the game itself, it isn't so impossible after all, just very unlikely.

[Lanstarr]

Jan, ur twisting what we discussed yesterday . What me and Gregorio where trying to say was that ANYONE can get Initial claim no matter what enminity gear u have one. You then said nope, that enminity matters. Alot of us here are bsts so guys, when we wait for our lil repops of mobs to xp from, dont they go on an unagro stage for some seconds, Fafnir does is not given the time to go off its unagro stage, because everyone starting to claim him soon as he pops. In initial claim, anyone, bsts, whm, brd, rdm, anyone can claim. now, who will have hate after claim, is up to many factors. After 1 person claims, everyone who is in that persons pt/alliance have gained "access" to him so all their spells land, so yes, after initiall claim, Fafnir will most likely go to pld who flashed or what not. But only reason it went to the pld, was that the other person initially claimed it, allowing the pld to cast his flash on it. So lets say a brd claims Fafnir at 12:05:03 and a pld in his same alliance casts Flash it will land somewhere AFTER teh intiall claim, other wise, the Flash would of been the initiall claimer. Fafnir is not given the time to attack the intial claimer since the 2nd fastest person to cast spell probably has more enminity on their spell that a brds dia.
That was the discussion we was having yesterday, well, thats how i understood jan was saying, that enminty = claim, and what im saying is that a claim is a claim, no matter enminity, just means SE allowed ur spell to go thru over all the other ones.

[Amastacia]

I've had Faust pop before, and one alliance there had a BLM stun it and a PLD voke it, and I also tagged with it a single voke, and I ended up with Claim because of my higher enmity (claiming in full enmity gear 4tw), despite the other ally hitting it with 2 seperate claims during it's initial "claim window"

I love when Marlow claims with Shadowbind > EES.

lolRNGRMT ftmfl.

We got off a voke and at least 2 stuns, but EES before anyone could get off a 2nd hate grabber pwnt us.

[Faranim]

Aside from somebody doing something retarted (like claiming by assaulting carby onto Faf, or meleeing another mob while claiming a HNM pop), whoever makes the first action on a freshly popped HNM gets the claim. Period.

As far as the MPK changes, when multiple people have hate on an unclaimed mob, in order to "re-claim" the mob you must do the following:

1. Perform a Claiming action on the mob
2. That claiming action must put you at the top of the hate list

It's important to note that the mob must be claimed by the person with the most hate. If a PLD has the most hate and a BLM in his party casts Stun, the mob still won't claim (because the BLM doesnt have the most hate).

So really the only time Enmity matters is when you're fighting over a mob that went unclaimed.

[Janeru]

And I keep thinking this thread says "More thoughts on clam".

die greg

oh and lanstarr since you can't read... i said in the op that we're not talking about initial claim, we're talking about many people casting on a mob all at once.

[Khamsin]

At last check Flash and Stun were the same level of enmity. If Stun generated less hate then Flash did then I don't see how NIN/DRK could be as good as it is.

Have the NIN/DRKs tried NIN/PLD yet? Might be time to upgrade.

[Matricide]

I've had Faust pop before, and one alliance there had a BLM stun it and a PLD voke it, and I also tagged with it a single voke, and I ended up with Claim because of my higher enmity (claiming in full enmity gear 4tw), despite the other ally hitting it with 2 seperate claims during it's initial "claim window"

i was always wondering if it was the fact that it aggro'd you/us first. i remember running from qufim OP once and running into a worm at 100% that aggro'd someone. i shot one arrow at it and it took its life from 100% to like 20%, and was still yellow. i think if a mob pops and/or aggros someone while still unclaimed it causes problems like that.

[deakka]

well on asura, either the RMT'ers bot faust (no facts, just suspicions on the last few times i've seen them) or they have initial aggro when it pops. The last time my ls went up to faust, we saw Butchero open with EES as soon as the delay window went down, however, Faust seemed to make a beeline towards him as soon as he popped. Happened 2 times in a row with faust pretty much going straight for their RNG. Haven't seen Marlowe do it, but i'd have to assume it's pretty simillar

[divisortheory]

Maybe I'm missing something, but mobs don't even aggro for about 5-10 seconds after they pop. Unless people were standing around like idiots, why would anyone get initial aggro?

[further]

Maybe I'm missing something, but mobs don't even aggro for about 5-10 seconds after they pop. Unless people were standing around like idiots, why would anyone get initial aggro?

Exactly.

[Keltiks]

Maybe people were using AoE WS on Darters when it popped...could happen.

[Grad]

2 people who are in different parties will not both land the spell they cast to claim. Only one will land and that will get claim.

How SE determines who was too quick and who was just right I dunno, but I've never seen 2 people in diffent parties cast a spell at the same time and both land.

I have had first action on Sozu Rogberry several times over the past few months (steal, mug, kurayami ni) only to watch it be voked away by another camper. It has happened to me so many times I will only camp as nin/war now. You would think the odds of this would be low but for some reason it happens allllllllllllll the time.

[Setats]

Maybe people were using AoE WS on Darters when it popped...could happen.

and hit Faust... ya, that's it.

[rydiu]

Maybe I'm missing something, but mobs don't even aggro for about 5-10 seconds after they pop. Unless people were standing around like idiots, why would anyone get initial aggro?

I'm pretty sure some NMs don't have a delay when they pop (similar to dynamis mobs) and the delay is not always the same...ex: sometimes mobs will walk around for 5-6 seconds before aggro, sometimes 2-3...

[Luke]

I've seen the same thing you've seen @ Shikigami. Reason it happens is because whoever aggros it automatically has more hate on it, even if they don't cast directly on it. This won't ever happen @ Fafnir or something similar though because first action on the monster wins the claim.

[Shefki]

well on asura, either the RMT'ers bot faust (no facts, just suspicions on the last few times i've seen them) or they have initial aggro when it pops. The last time my ls went up to faust, we saw Butchero open with EES as soon as the delay window went down, however, Faust seemed to make a beeline towards him as soon as he popped. Happened 2 times in a row with faust pretty much going straight for their RNG. Haven't seen Marlowe do it, but i'd have to assume it's pretty simillar

Faust spawns immediately able to aggro. He doesn't have spawn sickness.

If you have people camping against you for Faust have all your Summoner's get out Carby and then go stand in the room where Faust spawns. If he aggros one of them, carby will immediately attack him and get the claim.

Works great and usually leaves everyone in the room scratching their head as to what just happened.

[Russta]

I've seen the same thing you've seen @ Shikigami. Reason it happens is because whoever aggros it automatically has more hate on it, even if they don't cast directly on it.

When I was getting an Oztroja coffer key for a friend last month, a Black Mage "stole" a Yagudo link with a Blizzard IV for around 30% of it's health but just the initial aggro from me was enough to keep it white.

So yeah, agreed.