Shellra V question~

[Fng]

Breaking in a new RDM's urge to heal any and all -HP is like, undoing everything they've known and loved for years and years /fun

changed slightly.. and I think that is why eldelphia likes cure- timers so much. Subtle teaching method when thier spell getting 0s back.

[Sylphet]

WHMs are very lucky in that most of the Group 1 Merits are quite good (save lolbanish). Personally I would have every category merited if I could (with Banish exception noted)

I decided to build a primarily defensive/tank party WHM set up for my WHM. I also usually go to events on WHM/SMN for Shining Ruby.

My WHM merits are:
Barspells x 5
Regen x 5
Shellra V x3
Devotion x1

I debated about doing 2 Devotion and 1 Martyr but I'm pretty sure I'll just finish Devotion. It allows PLDs some burst hate in the form of spam curing every 15-20 mins, or just allows them to breath easy if MP is tight all around. I have just over 1200 HP for Devotion which gives just over 300 MP, this will basically fill a BRD or PLD's MP back up. I've found myself looking at the timer wishing it was 5 minutes shorter so I will finish up those merits.

My linkshell's tanks are ususally NIN/(WAR/DRK/BRD) and PLD/NIN (for HNMs) so I didn't see any reason to get Protectra V merits.

As far as the effectiveness and MDB of the Barspells Shellra V:
The 2MDB per barspell merit is only for the element of the barspell. So, a fully merited WHM will have an additional 10 MDB for that particulat element.
My barspells give 121 resist.
I find they are very effective in reducing damage taken from elemental spells. This is especially true if combined with an elemental/-magic damage gear with the tank. Some examples:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...damagecopy.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...fernoBlast.jpg
This is even more apparent on NMs like Absolute Virute. Aeroga IV did an average of 700 damage on Rukenshin with -magic damage gear, Shellra V and baraera. It did roughly the same damage to me only I usually have Stoneskin up. Without buffs the spell does an average of 1200-1400 damage. (sorry not taking time to look for screenshots)

As with anything in this game, Shellra V is not the end all be all of magic defense. However when fully merited and combined with barspell merits/gear (along with tank -magic damage gear) I find it very effective and worth the merits.

[Tyche]

I went 5/5 bar spells, 5/5 cure cast time. I macro in cure clogs for cure spells, so that's -35% casting time on cures, which is sex. Anytime im throwing out bar spells, i macro in cleric legs, blessed briault (adds more MDB to bars), and enhancing torque. Only thing im missing is cleric's feet for +15 enhancing. I also have carby macroed and keep shining ruby on the tanks. That's, if i remember correctly, another 10MDB. When we did ouryu the other day, PLDs were taking 181 damage in the air without shining ruby, and 172 with it. Only have 1 merit in shellra V though, i need to finish that out >.<

[Ashira]

Cleric's Duckbills and +1s are only +10 enhancing, adding another +2 to Barspells.

Pair the Enhancing Torque with an Augmenting Earring and you get another +10 for another +2 Barspells. Otherwise the +7 is just +1.

And Merciful Cape, if Ix'MNK isn't a stingy ass bastard to you, is another +5, another +1 Barspell.

Add pants and 5 Barspell merits and you get Sylphet's total of 121. Add Blessed Briault for the % dmg reduction on top that just isn't configured into the # shown on equip screen.

Ok, well, no definitive answer so I guess I just need to test my original question myself, just haven't found... another WHM to do it with the moments I'm around.

I'll post back results.

[FFXIFlux]

I'm still holding my breath to see if they up the cap past 3 or not. I'm 1/1/1 pro/shel/devotion.

I don't really see the point of martyr, if I'm out of MP and can't heal, I'm on my knees praying for MP and couldn't martyr anyway so I doubt I'll get it.

As for Shell/Pro, higher ranks in shell giving only +1 MDB is pretty dissapointing. If there is a cap of 50 on MDB then mages will be getting very close to it already with job traits + shell 4 + bar merits + JSE, and MDB doesn't work on everything anyway so it's not a clear winner I don't think. Pro 5 even if it only gives 5 extra per rank, might in fact be lowering damage more than Shell 5 does, particularly after defender, cocoon etc. Eating fishkabobs in dynamis dramatically reduces physical damage I take, so I wouldn't be too surprised if an extra 15 def on a PLD could cut damage down by more than 3%.

[Force-Attuned Krogoth]

As for Shell/Pro, higher ranks in shell giving only +1 MDB is pretty dissapointing. If there is a cap of 50 on MDB then mages will be getting very close to it already with job traits + shell 4 + bar merits + JSE, and MDB doesn't work on everything anyway so it's not a clear winner I don't think. Pro 5 even if it only gives 5 extra per rank, might in fact be lowering damage more than Shell 5 does, particularly after defender, cocoon etc. Eating fishkabobs in dynamis dramatically reduces physical damage I take, so I wouldn't be too surprised if an extra 15 def on a PLD could cut damage down by more than 3%.

You might think that defense matters, but you'd be completely wrong. I can tell you from the perspective of a war/blu with 999 defense: it means very little on a mob IT or greater at level 75. It's great for skillup parties, no question. DC mobs can't reliably hit hard enough to trigger my ethereal earring (34 dmg). But, as an example, if I try to tank Abraxas in Lufaise, I take 150-200 per hit.

It's a matter of how attack and defense are compared to figure out the actual damage. Say, for an example, that a mob has 700 attack and you take 400 damage with 350 defense. If you had 700, you'd get hit for 200. In this case, having 350 more defense cut out 200 damage. But a paladin with 999 def would still get hit for about 140. That extra 300 defense only stops 60 per hit.

Basically, what I'm saying is that mobs' stats are so outrageous at endgame that it is literally impossible for defense to play a big role in reducing damage. Protectra V won't change that.

[Lockecole]

seeing as how i dont really merit anymore (school (*'-')) and i decided to start meriting smn skill ((************'-')), whm merits have hit the back burner~

I have 5/5 regen (<3), 1/3 devotion, and 1/3 shellV

when i finally get around to finishing whm, i think i'll get 5/5 barspell, and finish shell and devotion. ProV apparently sucks, and i can just mod the spell casting to look like V if i want pretty sparkles. Martyr..... eh. I have benediction for my insta-cure, and if i have no mp, im already resting. The reaction time for an insta-cureIV/V is too slow (to save someone) assuming you're resting when you have no mp. If theres nobody to cover you while you're resting, theres more of an issue with your PT/Alliance setup than the whm's merits.

I'm a dirty regen whore. Dirty dirty, skanky skanky for the regen. Merit PTs, dynamis, limbus- i run haste/regen/haste/regen/haste/regen/haste/regen lines, and i can rest after if i need to. Between (haste/regen[*]haste/regen) i can throw in cures if someone takes extra dmg the regen wont account for, or blindnas, or if the situation is dire enough, interrupt the line to toss a big cure. I really avoid hate spikes if im actually in the PT fighting, or if i need to spike, i follow a cure4/flash/voke with something big, and dont pull hate god loves -enmity, and you should too

Cure castime is for the birds, i have a low enmity flash that i can spam with plds so they can keep up shadows and pretty much avoid unnecessary healing altogether (plds can heal their AoE for hate, im just there to heal them when they cant manage it themselves in an efficient manner). Breaking in a new whm's urge to heal any and all -HP is like, undoing everything they've known and loved for years and years /fun

Ughhh. This should be stickied or something. I can't stand "good WHMs" who have no concept of how to conserve their MP, and become a useless sack of nothing when they constantly run out of MP. Niro's made of pure win, and is the true image of why WHM is so good in an EXP PT. Its just so much harder to find a WHM who benefits a merit PT as much as a RDM, but when you got them, you know.

[RKenshin]

Well, comparing the difference in adding 200 (just making up a value) defense that results in going from 400 to 600 isn't really the same as comparing adding 200 defense from 600 to 800. In the early ranges you'll notice a pretty considerable difference between adding large amounts of defense, but past a certain point adding defense does almost nothing... The difference between like 700 defense and 999 defense isn't even noticeable on most mobs.

With that in mind, generally most of the serious endgame tanking situations in this game can be put into one of two catergories:

1) Situations where the tank(s) have some sort of Utsesumi/Blink, where they will take very little physical damage.

2) Situations where the tank(s) have more than enough defense to get to the point where adding a little more essentially does nothing.

In both of the above, the defense is pretty much useless. Or, at least in comparison to the difference of capped Shellra considering that in a majority of the HNM fights you'll take more magic damage than physical. Not to mention the MDB is a flat out minus damage taken amount that (as far as we know) doesn't cap, or at least on tanks since they can't get a lot of MDB.

But, on the topic of merits, current rumor is that they're planning to eventually bump up the category two job specifc merits to a level 5 cap. I tend to agree, and highly doubt that they would never do it... It's more a question of when, it could be in the December update or some time in the Spring/Summer.

[FFXIFlux]

With that in mind, generally most of the serious endgame tanking situations in this game can be put into one of two catergories:

1) Situations where the tank(s) have some sort of Utsesumi/Blink, where they will take very little physical damage.

2) Situations where the tank(s) have more than enough defense to get to the point where adding a little more essentially does nothing.

In both of the above, the defense is pretty much useless. Or, at least in comparison to the difference of capped Shellra considering that in a majority of the HNM fights you'll take more magic damage than physical.

When I think about it most of our tanks die to physical damage. Physical hits after a Dissipation or a Wirecutter through shadows or an Equalizer over shadows (Ultima), physical hits after a breakga (Ouryu, jailer), mighty strikes hits (Tiamat), physical hits after a GA (Bahamut), body slam over shadows, Hundred Fist MNK mobs in dynamis etc. Oblivion Smash may be physical, no idea. Stuff like Mijn and Meteor aren't stopped by MDB, you need bars, -magic damage or dynamis ring.

But, as an example, if I try to tank Abraxas in Lufaise, I take 150-200 per hit.

5% would be 157-210, which is really hard to see. You'd have to run a parser on it. Yes, defence doesn't mean a lot, but we're talking about a couple % here. I don't think it's impossible that the defence that protect 5 gives couldn't make a small difference.

[DrObvious]

As for Shell/Pro, higher ranks in shell giving only +1 MDB is pretty dissapointing. If there is a cap of 50 on MDB then mages will be getting very close to it already with job traits + shell 4 + bar merits + JSE, and MDB doesn't work on everything anyway so it's not a clear winner I don't think.

The main reason you use barspells is for tanks or melees who sure as hell aren't hitting this hypothetical cap. Furthermore, blms have over +50 mab counting their gear and traits and I haven't seen any of them reporting a cap.

[RKenshin]

When I think about it most of our tanks die to physical damage. Physical hits after a Dissipation or a Wirecutter through shadows or an Equalizer over shadows (Ultima), physical hits after a breakga (Ouryu, jailer), mighty strikes hits (Tiamat), physical hits after a GA (Bahamut), body slam over shadows, Hundred Fist MNK mobs in dynamis etc. Oblivion Smash may be physical, no idea. Stuff like Mijn and Meteor aren't stopped by MDB, you need bars, -magic damage or dynamis ring.

In all those situations you listed the extra defense wouldn't have done much to save you in the first place... Those are all high damage physical attacks that will deal high damage regardless, and whether you have 600 defense or 999 won't make much of a difference.

The point of MDB (and defense as well) is to reduce how much MP you have to spend over time, but alone neither do much to make powerful TP/magic attacks more survivable. The main benefit is the MP saved... In a fight against Tiamat or really any Wyrm, 90% of the damage you'll take is magic damage in an ideal situation. Same for Bahamut/Kirin/Jailers/etc. 15 defense would in hindsight reduce the damage you get hit for on average by less than 1% if any in most situations, vs a definite 3% reduction.

And yes, Mijin/Meteor/etc are stopped by MDB in combination with other equipment... Just like Wirecutter/Hundred Fists/Tiamat are not stopped from defense alone, they're stopped from defense in combination with HP, VIT and -damage taken. With enough of each, anything can be brought down to reasonable damage.

And just like defense, MDB in combination with other gear can help you live through any of those you mentioned. You don't need a shadow ring.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8003/aeroga2zu0.jpg

AV's Meteor/Aeroga hits me for 700-900 with just Shellra V + my equipment with a mix of MDB/-magic/INT, vs 2000-3500 with no buffs/gear. Similar damage is common for other NINs/PLDs with just about the same gear as well.

[FFXIFlux]

And yes, Mijin/Meteor/etc are stopped by MDB in combination with other equipment...

Next time you're in dynamis and get mijned, compare the damage you take to the damage a mage takes who has the same fire resist as you. Mage won't take the 12% or whatever it is less because of their MDB trait because Mijn damage isn't reduced by MDB. Same is true with meteor. Shell is doing absolutely nothing for you. Hurricane Wing yes, Mijn no.

[aurik]

I have to say Flux is right on this account, after doing some experiments with kindred ninjas in dynamis xarc. On the melees, shell-vs-no shell made no difference, but those of us wearing merman earrings received slightly less damage.

[RKenshin]

That really doesn't even matter, lol... I don't know how I forgot to mention it in the first post but Mijin Gakure isn't even the same type of "magic" damage as everything else. Yes, Shell doesn't effect it and I don't know how I missed that in my post, but I meant to take Mijin out... It's overwhelmingly apparent as Mijin Gakure ignores Cerberus'/Hydra's magic defense, as well as Ultima/Omega's Magic Shields, and so on. In fact, why was Mijin even mentioned in the first place? It has nothing to do with magic/physical defense either way.

Even so it doesn't matter as no one merits Shellra because of Mijin Gakure, so whether or not it effects it isn't a big deal... But it does effect fire blasts, meteor, spells, and many TP attacks including Hurricane Wing, Citadel Buster, etc. Those are what my main points are about.