MNDs effects on Magic Defense

[Krandor]

Granted I didn't do a search on the forums for this, but I figure I can get away with this on the Newbie Advice section.

Is there a rough estimate (or cold hard numbers) on what effect MND has for reducing magic damage? I'm upgrading my MDB gear on PLD and trying to figure out what rate of HP can be sacrificed for MND in terms of HP saved vs. Max HP.

[Kaylia]

Isn't mind good only against white magic spell, and int against black magic? I never heard of mind giving magic defense, but again, it was never really one of my concern.

Anyway, assuming you meant int, it will always depend of the casters' int, but generally varies between 1.5-2.5int per m.def. For stuff like wyrm's wing, I've no idea how it works.

[Okuza]

If player resist operates the way critter resist does, then it would be MND for MND-based spells (mostly whm debuffs) and INT for INT-based spells (mostly blm nukes). I'm pretty sure it's not *just* ++MND = ++MDB.

[Krandor]

I see Ruke using MND gear with his Magic Resist setup on Bahamut's Flares, so I would assume it works on BLM spells as well.

I'm mainly interested in this for Bahamut V.2, my setup works fine already for Proto-Ultima. It's more just nit picking for maximum efficiency at this point.

[Suiram]

At some point along the line people started saying that MND increases the chance that you'll resist a spell, but I've never seen any evidence in support of it, and just chalk it up to a popular rumor. If I was going to make a generic magic down build for a tank job, I'd stack INT over MND anywhere that they were the only two options, because there's just as much reason to believe that INT helps increase resists as MND does (namely no real reason for either), and more INT will at the very least reduce the maximum unresisted damage you'll take from the black magic family of spells. Hope this helps.

Edit: Rukenshin isn't a very good example to use because he stacks so much Magic -%, MDB+, and generic elemental resistance+ gear in that build that it would be difficult to ascertain whether or not the pieces with MND are having any effect at all.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Well back in my nublet days I used to think that MND increased resist rate and INT was a linear damage decrease. I never proved or disproved it, I just never thought it was worth sharing much about since it was just kind of a guess. My theory also makes Holy based damage both increase resists and lower linear damage.

[Suiram]

Well back in my nublet days I used to think that MND increased resist rate and INT was a linear damage decrease. I never proved or disproved it, I just never thought it was worth sharing much about since it was just kind of a guess. My theory also makes Holy based damage both increase resists and lower linear damage.

Yeah but that's probably because in your nublet days as you call them you asked a friend or someone in your LS and they repeated what they had heard from a friend or someone in their LS or read somewhere, tracing all the way back to some guy who may very well have believed that 2INT = 1MAB or something.

Because the relationships between STR and VIT and Attack and Defense and DEX and AGI and Accuracy and Evasion are so symmetrical, people are inclined to attribute similar relationships to the mage attributes, INT, MND, and CHR, even though the ways that these stats figure into the things we do know for certain about shows they don't have the same types of correspondence.

[Shuemue]

Hey Krandor old buddy, let's go ballista sometime and test it?

I'll gladly spend an hour or two nuking your fat stinky galka ass.

[Kaylia]

If player resist operates the way critter resist does, then it would be MND for MND-based spells (mostly whm debuffs) and INT for INT-based spells (mostly blm nukes). I'm pretty sure it's not *just* ++MND = ++MDB.

I didnt mean it was =, but an equivalent after you put the variable in magic dmg formula (the one we already have, assuming monsters formula are the same as the players).

[Delekii]

Need to be clearer on the terms here, because MDB implies damage reduction, not resistance.

For damage reduction, matching the spell is the way to go. MND will straight lower damage on White magic, and INT on Black magic - the damage formulas use INT difference (or MND difference) between target and caster.

For damage resistance, people have confused standing. Personally, I think it works the same way, in that your resistance is (ofcourse minisculey) based around MND vs MND, or INT vs INT (or also CHR vs CHR). This is just my observation from my time as a mage, I havent done any specific testing.

[Kerberoz]

I don't believe there's ever been a credible test showing a direct link between either INT or MND affecting resist rate. At best there's a theory that you need to meet a certain tier of [mob int - your int] to not get insane resists. Again, this hasn't been proven, to my knowledge. Personally I've never observed base attributes doing anything at all for resistance.

[Delekii]

I don't believe there's ever been a credible test showing a direct link between either INT or MND affecting resist rate. At best there's a theory that you need to meet a certain tier of [mob int - your int] to not get insane resists. Again, this hasn't been proven, to my knowledge. Personally I've never observed base attributes doing anything at all for resistance.

INT definately affects resist rates, and it is most notable on high tier mobs (kirin, bahamut). Again, nuke Kirin in full elemental gear as opposed to elemental+int combination, you can absolutely see the difference.

[Carbon]

So would CHR give resistance vs. Songs?

[Suiram]

I don't believe there's ever been a credible test showing a direct link between either INT or MND affecting resist rate. At best there's a theory that you need to meet a certain tier of [mob int - your int] to not get insane resists. Again, this hasn't been proven, to my knowledge. Personally I've never observed base attributes doing anything at all for resistance.

INT definately affects resist rates, and it is most notable on high tier mobs (kirin, bahamut). Again, nuke Kirin in full elemental gear as opposed to elemental+int combination, you can absolutely see the difference.

Perhaps, but in that case all of Kirin's (target's) stats stays fixed while your (caster's) INT changes. For all you know it could be less resists because the formula is a function of caster's INT vs. target's MND, so really that doesn't affect the question of INT or MND for increased resists as the target of the spell or ability one way or the other.

[Seditedi]

Pretty sure MND does play a factor in resistance to BOTH INT and MND based magic (MND enfeebs, INT enfeebs, Nukes). Lvling BLM keeping mobs Shocked (decreased MND) definitely played a factor in my resist rate.

[Tyche]

Lifted from wiki

Calculation of D

Each magic tier has an inherent mutliplier value M.
Each magic spell has a base value V.
Let dINT be (Caster's INT - Target's INT).

For dINT < 0: D = V + dINT (when dINT is a penalty, the tier mult. is always 1)
For dINT > 0, but less than some inflection point: D = V + (dINT * M)
For dINT > 0, but after some inflection point: D = V + (const + (dINT-const) * M / 2))
(above some critical value, adding INT becomes half as effective)
For dINT > 0, but after some cap: D = cap

[Delekii]

I don't believe there's ever been a credible test showing a direct link between either INT or MND affecting resist rate. At best there's a theory that you need to meet a certain tier of [mob int - your int] to not get insane resists. Again, this hasn't been proven, to my knowledge. Personally I've never observed base attributes doing anything at all for resistance.

INT definately affects resist rates, and it is most notable on high tier mobs (kirin, bahamut). Again, nuke Kirin in full elemental gear as opposed to elemental+int combination, you can absolutely see the difference.

Perhaps, but in that case all of Kirin's (target's) stats stays fixed while your (caster's) INT changes. For all you know it could be less resists because the formula is a function of caster's INT vs. target's MND, so really that doesn't affect the question of INT or MND for increased resists as the target of the spell or ability one way or the other.

That isnt what I was arguing, sorry there are two different points to make here. My post there was regarding increasing ones own INT lowering resist rates directly in reply to Kerberoz, not whether or not the enemies MND or INT increases them.

Whether or not it is against INT or MND, nuking in INT affects resists.

[Suiram]

Lifted from wiki

Calculation of D

Each magic tier has an inherent mutliplier value M.
Each magic spell has a base value V.
Let dINT be (Caster's INT - Target's INT).

For dINT < 0: D = V + dINT (when dINT is a penalty, the tier mult. is always 1)
For dINT > 0, but less than some inflection point: D = V + (dINT * M)
For dINT > 0, but after some inflection point: D = V + (const + (dINT-const) * M / 2))
(above some critical value, adding INT becomes half as effective)
For dINT > 0, but after some cap: D = cap

That describes how the target's INT factors into calculating the base unresisted damage of a spell, which like 3 people have already mentioned in this thread and which is not in dispute. The question is as to whether or not there is some kind of caster's INT vs. target's MND/INT thing going on in the % chance of resisting a spell or magical ability, which many people believe to be true, while myself and others here are skeptical.

[Seditedi]

For what reasons are you skeptical? Of course I may have been purely lucky, but during my entire time leveling BLM and RDM I noticed that when a mob had Shock casted on it, I noticed less resists on nukes, enfeebles, etc.
Mobs with high MND (WHM, etc.) also tend to resist more than other mobs, and no its a straight out resist, not MDB.

[Silmarwen]

This was mentioned in another thread on that other board...wherein a new blm was leveling and was curious about elemental debuffs. There's a said sticky on said board which I pointed the new blm to for reference in which it mentions shock as lowering the mobs mnd, thus lowering it's resist rate. When I leveled blm, I also used shock for this very reason, as also mentioned by Seditedi. Another friend of mine, who was having difficulty with resists while leveling blm, I also told to try shock, and he definetly noticed less resists. At any rate, I was quickly shot down on said thread because the replying poster claimed that lower a mobs mnd in fact does not lower the resist rate of int based spells.

That being said...maybe it was just coincidence that I had less resists with shock on the mob? Maybe mnd does play into magic resists of any type of magic? I'm very curious to know.

I will mention one other thing I've noticed...whm mobs in dynamis-xarc are harder to sleep than any of the other mobs, maybe because they usually have shell up, or maybe because of their higher MND, the world may never know...