Guardian and Sentinel

[NynJa]

A friend asking me what are the effects of Guardian on Sentinel. Now, before you go "LOL NUB GUARDIAN SAYS IT REDUCES ENMITY LOSS WHEN USING SENTINEL", I'm fully aware of that and I can read. Thing is, Guardian was added before Sentinel got its own buff of a pretty huge Enmity spike.


Is Guardian's effect on Sentinel more or less the same...or is it just flat out useless now ?

[Elondir]

A friend asking me what are the effects of Guardian on Sentinel. Now, before you go "LOL NUB GUARDIAN SAYS IT REDUCES ENMITY LOSS WHEN USING SENTINEL", I'm fully aware of that and I can read. Thing is, Guardian was added before Sentinel got its own buff of a pretty huge Enmity spike.


Is Guardian's effect on Sentinel more or less the same...or is it just flat out useless now ?

IMO it's BS now. Sentinel blocks most of the damage to start with anyway, a 0dmg hit is no enmity loss and I seriously doubt it'll make a difference for the amount of merits it costs to cap.

But then again, PLD second tier doesn't get much that's amazing, guess it comes down to whether you're a /NIN monkey or not. /NIN won't see it's effect at all, /WAR might on a small scale.

[Norelco]

A friend asking me what are the effects of Guardian on Sentinel. Now, before you go "LOL NUB GUARDIAN SAYS IT REDUCES ENMITY LOSS WHEN USING SENTINEL", I'm fully aware of that and I can read. Thing is, Guardian was added before Sentinel got its own buff of a pretty huge Enmity spike.


Is Guardian's effect on Sentinel more or less the same...or is it just flat out useless now ?

IMO it's BS now. Sentinel blocks most of the damage to start with anyway, a 0dmg hit is no enmity loss and I seriously doubt it'll make a difference for the amount of merits it costs to cap.

But then again, PLD second tier doesn't get much that's amazing, guess it comes down to whether you're a /NIN monkey or not. /NIN won't see it's effect at all, /WAR might on a small scale.

Sentinel = damage mitigation that fades over time + (supposedly) any actions generated while sentinel is up generates more enmity.

Gaurdian = (as Nynja pointed out) Reduces enmity loss while sentinel is active.

Therefore, I don't think it's BS (if you're on a /WAR sub). It's still possible to lose hate while sentinel is up because the damage mitigation wears, but only if you're not doing other things such as provoking/flashing/curing while it is still active. Gaurdian will supposedly further reduce this hate loss.

[Akroma_Seraph]

I cannot tell a diffrence, better or worse. Though I will say having it capped, and with the changed of sentinel and the fact that I use PLD/NIN about 10 times as much as I use PLD/WAR, I am switching my teir2 merits from Guardx3/Chivx2/Fealty to -> Guardx2/Chivx3/Fealty eventually. Chance are I won't make the chance until I cap all other merits.. and that is still going to take me another 200+ with all the jobs...

And Yes, I am a fan of Fealty, it has shown as a surprising amount of use for me, even though it would be far better on a 5min timer it is still a minor hate tool when up vs something it won't make a diffrence on.

[Norelco]

I cannot tell a diffrence, better or worse. Though I will say having it capped, and with the changed of sentinel and the fact that I use PLD/NIN about 10 times as much as I use PLD/WAR, I am switching my teir2 merits from Guardx3/Chivx2/Fealty to -> Guardx2/Chivx3/Fealty eventually. Chance are I won't make the chance until I cap all other merits.. and that is still going to take me another 200+ with all the jobs...

And Yes, I am a fan of Fealty, it has shown as a surprising amount of use for me, even though it would be far better on a 5min timer it is still a minor hate tool when up vs something it won't make a diffrence on.

I have Chiv x 3 and Gaurdian x 1. I don't know much about Fealty. Could you describe for me what it does? Isn't it something like resistance against enfeebles while Rampart is active, or is that Iron Will? Argh, can't remember.

[Akroma_Seraph]

I cannot tell a diffrence, better or worse. Though I will say having it capped, and with the changed of sentinel and the fact that I use PLD/NIN about 10 times as much as I use PLD/WAR, I am switching my teir2 merits from Guardx3/Chivx2/Fealty to -> Guardx2/Chivx3/Fealty eventually. Chance are I won't make the chance until I cap all other merits.. and that is still going to take me another 200+ with all the jobs...

And Yes, I am a fan of Fealty, it has shown as a surprising amount of use for me, even though it would be far better on a 5min timer it is still a minor hate tool when up vs something it won't make a diffrence on.

I have Chiv x 3 and Gaurdian x 1. I don't know much about Fealty. Could you describe for me what it does? Isn't it something like resistance against enfeebles while Rampart is active, or is that Iron Will? Argh, can't remember.

While fealty is up you can't be enfeebled. Simple. I find it useful for DL, Ouryu its nice to throw up when you have it.. Ultima/Omega.. I dunno I just don't really want to get rid of it, I like having the extra abiltiy.

[Terrance]

Sentinel blocks most of the damage to start with anyway, a 0dmg hit is no enmity loss and I seriously doubt it'll make a difference for the amount of merits it costs to cap.

Pretty much any mage could tell you they've had a mob run over to them, swing and miss then run back to the tank, or hit stoneskin for 0 and turn around. So a 0 damage hit isn't no loss.

[Talint]

Pretty much any mage could tell you they've had a mob run over to them, swing and miss then run back to the tank, or hit stoneskin for 0 and turn around. So a 0 damage hit isn't no loss.

When you get smacked with stoneskin on, it isn't necessarily the same thing.

It "adds" a certain amount of HP, if you will. When you get hit, you don't lose HP, but it does take away from the amount added to stoneskin. So it gets triggered with enemy AI that they've been hurt.

The All New Sentinel works differently. For every second that passes from when it was activated, you take more damage, regardless if you're hit or not.

[Thitaubian]

When stoneskin is hit for 0 dmg we lose less hate than if we were hit and our hp bar was lowered.

At least that is what I have experienced in the past.

I would also think that a 0 dmg hit, under the effect of sentinel in the first few seconds, is not 'no enmity loss'.
If that were so PLDs would lose more hate if the mob missed in that instance, which makes little sense to me.

Just my reasoning, as I have no proof.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I capped out Guardian before the Sentinel update and I could feel noticeable differences in the enmity as PLD/WAR in an exp party and Fafnir. The sentinel boost just seems all the more better because of it.

I wouldn't say it's worth getting 100% for certain, but realistically, the other PLD Group2 aside from Chivalry are kinda meh imo. With PLD/NIN i don't see myself struggling for MP so much and it's not for lack of trying. I don't think having Chivalry at 10min recast is really worth it. 15m seems ok, 12:30 sounds ideal perhaps. That extra raise could go toward something like Fealty or so, which seems ok for Ballista and other stuff that was mentioned here too.

[Judai]

It's does exactly what it says.

Sentinel reduces damage. The amount of damage reduces drops over time. Also while sentinel is up, you generate more enmity with each action.

Guardian reduces the amount of enmity lost with sentinel up. Everytime you get hit or someone else generates hate on the mob you lose some hate on it(whether or not the mob does damage to you). This amount is lessened with this trait by 19% a merit iirc. (might be off not on atm to check)

I think Guardian is worth it to have. I know when I use Sentinel, pretty much no matter what people do, I don't lose the attention of the mob. I only have one Guardian merit myself, tho I would probably add 1-2 more. I can tell the differnece in enmity loss tho.

Personally I like Iron Will. With rampart up you get +Spell Interupt(again +19% a merit iirc). This makes Rampart even sexier. Major aoe hate tool, magic shield and +spell interupt. I usually am able to cure myself very easily with it up.

Being Taru, I have a vast amount of MP. I believe I have about 620MP in PLD/NIN gear and about 550MP in /WAR gear. I very rarely have to use Chivalry. Only time I really get low on MP is in small groups or huge pulls in Dynamis. I definately don't use Chivalry every 15m so I see no need to upgrade it.

I've never thought about using Fealty as a hate tool. It might be nice for that, otherwise I just see no point in it. You rarely know when you are going to be enfeebled so it's a hit or miss ability in stopping an enfeeble.

I have too many jobs to merit. :/ I should stop leveling new ones and cap these out, lol.

[LLK]

I have 2/3 Guardian (almost to level 3) and I tend to notice that I generate more hate with Sentinel then other PLD/NIN's in my shell.

Or with a lot of other jobs too.

I practically solo tanked LolAspido today because the other PLD/NIN couldn't get hate off my capped Sentinel + Guardian merits. Atleast that's what I assume it is. I noticed the difference in hate when we both popped Sentinel around the same time.

We also have pretty similar Enimty+ gear, except he got the majority of the SaTa and I still didn't lose hate.

[Flight_93]

he got the majority of the SaTa and I still didn't lose hate.

lolSata hate @ turtle.

[Isildur]

I have capped Guardian and i've seen a difference before the Sentinel update, its more useful now since you'll lose even less hate from getting hit for 10-30 damage. If you time Sentinel right, you can have 2 melees SC with all your BLMs nuking the strongest spell and you wont get hate ripped off you. I've done this twice in one Fafnir fight on PLD/WAR, its definetly useful.

As for Sentinel's hate generation, i think Guardian improves it because -57% reduction in Enmity loss for 30 seconds is pretty strong if you're only getting hit for minimal damage anyways.

[Norelco]

I don't think having Chivalry at 10min recast is really worth it. 15m seems ok, 12:30 sounds ideal perhaps. That extra raise could go toward something like Fealty or so, which seems ok for Ballista and other stuff that was mentioned here too.

I'm pretty sure you can only get Chivalry up to 3, which gives it a maximum of 15 minute recast.

[Dark Vincent]

I don't think having Chivalry at 10min recast is really worth it. 15m seems ok, 12:30 sounds ideal perhaps. That extra raise could go toward something like Fealty or so, which seems ok for Ballista and other stuff that was mentioned here too.

I'm pretty sure you can only get Chivalry up to 3, which gives it a maximum of 15 minute recast.

You're correct. As for Guardian I did not test it myself because since the Sentinel update I was wondering if it still worked as intended or the new sentinel effect override/glitched it. I always read that "enmity loss" from Guardian as refering to the normal enmity loss that happens over time from stuff like Flash and Provoke, not only from damage. And the new Sentinel effect does seem to do the same thing. So yeah, I was a bit confused myself as well.
If people show it does work though (some examples, setups, whatever) I think it's worth having on lvl 2 at least.
As for Fealty, I always thought it was kinda lame but never tried it myself, might be worth a shot I guess.
And I love Chivalry ;( Even on /NIN

[Xavier]

Chivalry owns.

I understand what the taru was saying, but I enjoy spamming cure iv on just about anyone in the alliance while tanking as long as they're taking damage, hit chivalry, and repeat, devotion, and repeat kinda.

I was kinda hesitant on how to spend the other 3 tier2 merits, but reading this makes guardian seem worth it.

[Credos]

I went full Chivalry and Guardian and don't have any regrets. As it was stated already, maxed out Guardian can only increase your enmity generated, so I would think its a little much to say it is a waste now with the sentinel update.

Fealty is ok I guess, but you have WHM and /WHM to get the status effects off you. I personally thought it wasn't worth meriting a JT that by its description would "possibly" prevent you from being enfeebled.

[Akiyama]

I can tell a difference with Sentinal at low levels definitely >.> In a 36-38 party and what not, PLD friend Sentinals > Flash > Provoke so I Sharpshot > Piercing Arrow > Barrage > Piercing Arrow and he's still got hate. Any other time he'd do that, the mob would be right on me obviously.. (and if it's another full hit Barrage like the previous. So -shrugs- I'm sure it's obviously even better with all the +Enmity gear you can throw on.

[Raineer]

he got the majority of the SaTa and I still didn't lose hate.

lolSata hate @ turtle.

sata = spin the toytle = win