Heated Endgame Discussion

[LD]

The irony that you probably don't even realize I'm a pearlsack to BG and an admin on the forums, lol.

Rabble rabble rabble

Nice knowing you.

Wouldn't be the first time some douche kicked me out just because I disagreed with him.

Why are you attacking a persons manhood over something so trivial?

Honestly? Because that's what I see in his actions.
I doubt you'll believe me, but it isn't to cut down his arguement, I did that in another way.
When I said that, it was out of a personal disgust I have with that type of conduct.

Also, I tend to psychoanalyse.

[Intense]

Edit: Do you think the people who left can really be appeased by anything?
You have a point though, people who enjoy the core game, but dislike certain aspects may still have valid input.
However, people who don't even have that anymore aren't worth listening to.

Why not? Its not uncommon for a store to ask for a reason why a customer is returning an item. They want to know if said item is broken so that they can fix the problem or not try to resell it. Why is this situation different?

[BRP]

Oh sure, that way of thinking makes a lot of sense, but in the end it always boils down to bitter people asking for things only they only see as important while cursing off everything else.

You seem to have confused enjoying the game with blind acceptance. The game is great and fun, I enjoy the hell out of it, I don't regret putting money into it. However, it is not perfect. I see how it is not perfect and if SE says they are going to change things, I hope they change things in a manner that makes the game look a little more perfect.

There is a whole other point of view that sees everything SE does as poison. Cutscenes, Fellows, Chocobo Raising/Racing, Besieged, ect ect, are apparently wastes of time for an object which job is to waste your time. While the end-game is a whole big thing we should all care about, it appears that some people only want the end-game. They never liked FFXI, just the grinding. Grinding can kiss my ass, there are plenty of games that have that.

Whatever SE releases, I hope it's FFXI, not an attempt to be what it's not(like WoW). I hope they fix the end-game and add more content to it while keeping it FFXI.

[Intense]

Whatever SE releases, I hope it's FFXI, not an attempt to be what it's not(like WoW). I hope they fix the end-game and add more content to it while keeping it FFXI.

And if its not, what will you do?

[BRP]

Whatever SE releases, I hope it's FFXI, not an attempt to be what it's not(like WoW). I hope they fix the end-game and add more content to it while keeping it FFXI.

And if its not, what will you do?

Either not do it or not be so whiny about it, depending on how they do it.

[Sho]

Edit: Do you think the people who left can really be appeased by anything?
You have a point though, people who enjoy the core game, but dislike certain aspects may still have valid input.
However, people who don't even have that anymore aren't worth listening to.

Why not? Its not uncommon for a store to ask for a reason why a customer is returning an item. They want to know if said item is broken so that they can fix the problem or not try to resell it. Why is this situation different?

SE is slow to change, even when the gamers are basically shouting in their ear, in unison, what should be changed for the game to be more enjoyable over all. A store will fix that item or toss it and have it replaced as soon as possible to keep their members and customers. Why can't SE fix the damn problems we've been having for years on end?

[Intense]

I think I should elaborate. If FFXI went in a direction that was blatantly like WoW, or some other MMO, which goes against your wishes like you stated. What would you do?

When I ask this, Im assuming that you wouldnt like a move by them trying to copy off another game.

[LD]

Why not? Its not uncommon for a store to ask for a reason why a customer is returning an item. They want to know if said item is broken so that they can fix the problem or not try to resell it. Why is this situation different?

Because this isn't a lamp or food, something that's supposed to work one way and one way only.

A game like this is enjoyed for many reasons and games in general prey on the transience of youth.
When a source of enjoyment hits a plateau, a person will probably never play it again.
It seems that the most these people get out of this game are the friends they have.
The game itself is a conversation piece, that's the real reason people feel as though they need it to keep in contact with people.
When they find the get no more enjoyment with the game, they either feel disconnected with their friends ho still enjoy it, or try to bring them over to something else.
I could go into how they don't attempt to forge a real relationship, but that's going too far even for me.

Ah, but I digress.
When you buy bad food or break an item before the warrenty expires, you expect immediate recompense, it is only logical.
This is a game that cannot be immediately fixed, even if all the good suggestions in the world are implemented as soon as their heard/read.
It is not within the patience of most people to wait that long, by the time SE does get their act together, people will have found the next new thing to take up all their time.
If a person still enjoys the game enough to come back, they were never really gone to begin with. The onus was, as I've always said, on the developers, and it was only a matter of time before something was fixed to bring back in those who were pushed away by that problem.
If they don't, well that's life. What was enjoyable is no longer enjoyable and no amount of fixes will change that.

[BRP]

I think I should elaborate. If FFXI went in a direction that was blatantly like WoW, or some other MMO, which goes against your wishes like you stated. What would you do?

When I ask this, Im assuming that you wouldnt like a move by them trying to copy off another game.

Oh uh, okay. Hmm, its hard to imagine exactly what it would mean. If they stopped putting effort into the storyline and random fun-bits I enjoy, I probably play the game less and less. The end-game is just an means to an end to me anyway, so if they focused on the means instead of the end, I'd probably find myself grinding for nothing.

If they practically changed their direction completely, like abandoned everything they did before to release more and more 'raid' content, I'd probably just stop playing after I did things I do now enough.

And copying can mean many things. I love set bonuses.

[Intense]

I think I should elaborate. If FFXI went in a direction that was blatantly like WoW, or some other MMO, which goes against your wishes like you stated. What would you do?

When I ask this, Im assuming that you wouldnt like a move by them trying to copy off another game.

Oh uh, okay. Hmm, its hard to imagine exactly what it would mean. If they stopped putting effort into the storyline and random fun-bits I enjoy, I probably play the game less and less. The end-game is just an means to an end to me anyway, so if they focused on the means instead of the end, I'd probably find myself grinding for nothing.

If they practically changed their direction completely, like abandoned everything they did before to release more and more 'raid' content, I'd probably just stop playing after I did things I do now enough.

And copying can mean many things. I love set bonuses.

At the point where you eventually stop logging in and cancel your content ID because of the changes, should your opinions of what you think FFXI should be considered invalid? Even if it means you might return if they revert back to what you like?

[BRP]

If I still enjoy the game, which means I wouldn't cancel my IDs, then yeah(er, yeah as in still valid).

If not, then no, in my eyes the game would be in ruin, but there are some who will still like it as it is.

EDIT: Either you ninja'd it or I didn't see it but,

Even if it means you might return if they revert back to what you like?

Changing it twice would be so impractical to me that probably not, even if we are just imagining it. Look at a game like SWG, once it has its big change, its pretty much over.

[Intense]

Why not? Its not uncommon for a store to ask for a reason why a customer is returning an item. They want to know if said item is broken so that they can fix the problem or not try to resell it. Why is this situation different?

Because this isn't a lamp or food, something that's supposed to work one way and one way only.

A game like this is enjoyed for many reasons and games in general prey on the transience of youth.
When a source of enjoyment hits a plateau, a person will probably never play it again.
It seems that the most these people get out of this game are the friends they have.
The game itself is a conversation piece, that's the real reason people feel as though they need it to keep in contact with people.
When they find the get no more enjoyment with the game, they either feel disconnected with their friends ho still enjoy it, or try to bring them over to something else.
I could go into how they don't attempt to forge a real relationship, but that's going too far even for me.

Ah, but I digress.
When you buy bad food or break an item before the warrenty expires, you expect immediate recompense, it is only logical.
This is a game that cannot be immediately fixed, even if all the good suggestions in the world are implemented as soon as their heard/read.
It is not within the patience of most people to wait that long, by the time SE does get their act together, people will have found the next new thing to take up all their time.
If a person still enjoys the game enough to come back, they were never really gone to begin with. The onus was, as I've always said, on the developers, and it was only a matter of time before something was fixed to bring back in those who were pushed away by that problem.
If they don't, well that's life. What was enjoyable is no longer enjoyable and no amount of fixes will change that.

Everything you said is irrelevent, and I say that with certainty because my point wasnt what item you were returning. It is the act of the store considering you a valued customer and caring about the product they are selling.

Food, Lamps, FFXI... are all products.

[Intense]

Changing it twice would be so impractical to me that probably not, even if we are just imagining it. Look at a game like SWG, once it has its big change, its pretty much over.

Maybe impractible but not impossible, just look at the RNG nerf/unnerf. This is 1 example, but it proves that they arent opposed to reverting things.

p.s. I didnt ninja that in so you must have overlooked, lol.

[LD]

At the point where you eventually stop logging in and cancel your content ID because of the changes, should your opinions of what you think FFXI should be considered invalid? Even if it means you might return if they revert back to what you like?

As much as I hate the idea, life is based on majority rule.

That's an immutable fact, but I'll be nice and answer your question (that was not directed at me) another way.
My opinion on how the game should work has been different from reality since before the game was released.
The game was how I envisioned it would be until I hit valkurm.
Until you hit 10-15, you can solo effectively (even if it isn’t the best rate, you get a fair amount of your level percentage fighting EP-EMs), but PTs still gain more exp.
That's how I wanted it to work, and other than the itemization and drop trouble that seems to be the main problem people have with FFXI, I believe that would fix everything wrong with the game, making it perfect for me.

Ah, but that's for me.
Some people actually enjoy only being able to do shit with other people.
Some people say 'If you wanna do this, then be this, lazy.'
Limitations on jobs make them unique, not being able to do everything in a PT makes sense and makes it seems more natural (imo.)
However, soloing is that thing that should not just be possible for every job (which technically, it already is), but practical.

....off base a lil' bit, anyway none of the friends I'd actually feel comfortable asking anything of are available all the time and I don't like wasting money through items on soloing for chump exp, waiting in town for hours for nothing, or join with a bunch of fuckwads who don't know their neck slot from a whole in the ground....

still getting off base ><;

People believe not being able to take on certain things make it more realistic, and I agree, but 'Even Match' shouldn't be difficult to impossible for every job...God damnit.

Balance, realism, equality, these things get thrown around a lot, but they are only listened to when it's by the people who they changed the game for.
The people who still play.
You keep the ones you have First and foremost. Doing anything else is a bad idea.
If you're sure you can keep them, that's when you make changes, all the time making sure you don't lose what got people in the first place.
FFXI has not lost anything but players, the game has only been improved, development-wise.
The only thing they are lacking is the ability to adjust to an influx of 75's (ironic, ne?).
This game has not been made shitty, it has been the same, for all intents and purposes.
The only thing that has significantly changed is us.
Likes, dislikes, jobs, family, friends, all these things and more affect how we receive something.
You can't completely blame the game on just not enjoying it anymore.

Everything you said is irrelevent, and I say that with certainty because my point wasnt what item you were returning. It is the act of the store considering you a valued customer and caring about the product they are selling.

Food, Lamps, FFXI... are all products.

Just because you don't accept my opinion or disagree with it doesn't make it irrelevant, but, ya know, good for you and your opinion.
Incidentally, that's not the way you presented it and it IS uncommon for people to give a shit why you brought it back.
They're more pissed at the money they just lost.
If you want to equate a game, which is a source of entertainment, to a utilitarian mainstay like a lamp, then there's a problem here, isn't there?
You don't need a video game, you need a light source.
When a lamp breaks, it must be immediately repaired or replaced.
Its disfunction is a fact, not open for differing opinions.
A video game's disfunction, beyond the realm of bugs, is almost entirely subjective, and while is can lean more to one end than the other, debate is still possible, which is why we're here.

[Intense]

My question could have been answered by a Yes or a No.

Just because you don't accept my opinion or disagree with it doesn't make it irrelevant

Youre right, but what makes it irrelevent is that it had nothing to with my point. That long paragraph didnt disprove anything about my previous point in which you were answering. I really dont want to get into semantics any further though because it derails from the main discussion, although youll probably want to reply to this, lol.

[Xavier]

I have a lot to say about everything you said, but I can't get past the point that you only use one sentence paragraphs for everything. Its really annoying. Stop taking it so personal. You're the one whos looking like a complete douche, lol.

Oh, I'm sorry mazza, I'll shine them shoes while doin' a dance fo'ya!

I guess you are 5, so I can see why you need positive reinforcement about life.

You calling me deluded is an attempt to make your differing opinion carry more weight than it actually does.
You think I'm wrong.
Say that like a man and don't make an infantile attempt to undermine my mental state.

I called a certain type of person deluded, and I used a comment you made as an example. You've somehow decided that I'm in a personal fist-fight with you.

I just think you're an idiot at this point. Its just a fucking game brother. Seeing you get so worked up about it is nothing short of awesome.

[Twcblaze]

I have a lot to say about everything you said, but I can't get past the point that you only use one sentence paragraphs for everything. Its really annoying. Stop taking it so personal. You're the one whos looking like a complete douche, lol.

Oh, I'm sorry mazza, I'll shine them shoes while doin' a dance fo'ya!

I guess you are 5, so I can see why you need positive reinforcement about life.

You calling me deluded is an attempt to make your differing opinion carry more weight than it actually does.
You think I'm wrong.
Say that like a man and don't make an infantile attempt to undermine my mental state.

I called a certain type of person deluded, and I used a comment you made as an example. You've somehow decided that I'm in a personal fist-fight with you.

I just think you're an idiot at this point. Its just a fucking game brother. Seeing you get so worked up about it is nothing short of awesome.

it makes for good reading while exping too

[Lordwafik]

I love the game, but am not blind/addicted enough to deny some aspects of it sucks, It sucks alot. Another part that sucks is SE saying "Hey guys we fixed something you complained about" and instead making it worse.

They are a Japanese company, therefore they'll be too proud to admit into any faults they make. They never admit when something wrong happens, they just ninja edit it instead, that's bad bad. They don't seem to listen properly to the fanbase, they asked us what players wanted, we said we want more diverse HNM, however they put poop on them because they thought we wanted the fights and not the loots.

Alot of people play for loots, why deny that, I play for shiny items to put on my toon, and I love them. However "Where there's a will, there's a way" doesn't apply to alot of things SE poop out at us. /poke Arrapago Remnants, /poke /poke AV.

A main reason I play is my friends, another big reason I play is because I like the game, every update I have that little smidgeon of hope that something will fix, but I don't hold my breath for it.

I really really hope salvage gets fixed. Sure it's artificial challenge, but it's a challenge nonetheless, it's not something as completely gimmicky as level cap, as you're using strategy at least to show who's getting what cell, how's that going to effect your outcome, etc.

[LD]

Well, I can't say I don't see this trap coming from a mile away, but if I thought I was wrong, I wouldn't have said anything to begin with.

First off, nice job using the classic 'you're an asshole for continuing this topic' move.
If you really gave a crap about that you wouldn't have engaged in this in the first place.

Apparently facetiousness is beyond you, or you somehow believe just because I used a mock-slave line that I have the brain of a 5-year old.
That's an interesting thing to say about that. :x

Xavier, your attitude offends me regardless of your opinions or any possible introspection.
Just as much as you're allowed to say certain things unprovoked, I am allowed to voice my opinion of your character..or does your modship give you the moral high-ground?

I've stated my opinions clearly on concisely and have had no illusions of this being a dialogue.
This is and has always been a one-sided argument with no one actually listening to the other side.
Which is only natural on the internet.

Have fun continuing to make me seem like a raving lunatic.

[Xavier]

Oh, I'm sorry mazza, I'll shine them shoes while doin' a dance fo'ya!
D'z nutz, puta. You ban my ass if you want.

That looks kinda racist, kinda stupid too.

It should be a game first and a chat room dead-last

It can be whatever I want if I'm paying $12.99 a month, regardless of what you think it should be.

if your ties to your friends are so tenuous that you need to play a game (that you're paying for) to be with them, they aren't worth being around.
mIRC, AIM, MSNM, etc. If you don't have that, then you're just not trying.

Some people are really PS2 users, and a lot of the japanese players I only know through the game. You lose a lot in communication between auto-translate, emotes, etc in comparison to straight text on aim.

You calling me deluded is an attempt to make your differing opinion carry more weight than it actually does.
You think I'm wrong.
Say that like a man and don't make an infantile attempt to undermine my mental state.

Calling someone deluded is pretty straight forward. Do you want me to call you a fucking idiot, is that being more of a man? Ok. You're a fucking idiot.

This next patch is not going to save this game, nothing close, and I made no indication of it doing so.

I don't think I ever said anything specifically about you, before you decided to take issue with my comments. I was generalizing and you took it personal. Go cry about it.

I simply said that I expect something better than what we've seen.

And I said its delusional to expect something better so many years down the road when nothing dramatic has changed.

Idealistic? Yes, because precedent and probability goes against it.
Delusional? No, because it is possible (though not as probable.)

You can look up delusional all you want, but I don't think you're going to find a definition that says delusional = impossible.

You have a bone to pick, you felt like airing out your grievances, but you wanted an excuse to start talking, so you over-inflated the first little comment you saw.

I made a comment saying just because Square reads what we write, doesn't mean they care. You decided that was worth jumping on. Check the thread. What I said was innocent enough, you got worked up over it. I didn't even quote you with my comment, it was directed towards everyone.

I saw that as a bitch move, so I called bullshit.

Hope you start calling bullshit anytime anyone makes a post.

Real men say what they want without needing to use someone to harsh on as a jumping point.

Glad to know you're such a tough guy. Bet you have balls of steel because you're such a real man.

If you’ve given up on this game, go to WoW BG like everyone else who did.

You've reached a conclusion not supported by the facts. I don't get how you connected giving up on the game with giving up on the development team. I'm obviously still playing the game.

Honestly, there’s nothing wrong with that, having the patience for SE is asking a lot.

Ok.

However, you should at least have the balls to just go over there and not try to rationalize your displeasure into something other than it is

Displeased that Square has pissed on endgame, in the face of its playerbase, since Zilart, yes, I am. I don't know what other rationalization you're drawing here.

You are no longer entertained by this game.

Again, not supported by the facts. I've never said I was bored with the game. I said I was bored with the gameplay. Being disenchanted with one aspect of something doesn't mean you automatically hate the whole package.

People grow out of things, things stop being as good as they were, but real maturity is learning how to deal with it gracefully.

Learning how to cope w/ shitty endgame and keep playing is pretty graceful. Sorry if your idea of graceful is to lay down and die.

Who cares if it saves the game anyway?

I don't think anyone is going to stand up and say they hope the patch sucks.

I just think I might enjoy it, who gives a fuck if people stay?
As long as the game gets even a little better for me, screw everyone else.

You'll be enjoying the game when you're the last player left and the servers are shutdown because its no longer profitable. Right, fuck everyone else. Brilliant.

Edit: Do you think the people who left can really be appeased by anything?

Yes. Nobody has ever left with a whimper. People have a general list of complaints, near universal complaints, that Square simply hasn't bothered to fix.

You have a point though, people who enjoy the core game, but dislike certain aspects may still have valid input.
However, people who don't even have that anymore aren't worth listening to.

So many assumptions its not even funny at this point.

If you do not, this is angst ridden venting, and that is more childish than hoping for something that may never come.

Yes, accepting reality is far more childish than hoping for a fantasy. Its story time children.

Have fun continuing to make me seem like a raving lunatic.

You're doing a fine job of that yourself.