dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[Keno]

Anyone who thinks SE put in Maat's Cap for stats really missed the point. It is a trophy. I think it's even joked on by SE, because you get the hat instead of a Ridil. It's like comparing the San d'Orian Flag to Rajas Ring.

Well when they give you the hat instead of the Ridill or KClub it's certainly a joke... Unless this hidden crit rate+ is there, in which case it's no longer just a trophy item.

[RKenshin]

[quote=Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

(...)

You're also overstimating the effects of weapons base DMG and understimating the role of Dexterity when it comes to triggering criticals in a multi-hit weapon skill; in fact large quantities of DEX in your WS macro may compensate for the lack of Attack, just by increasing the chances of criticals*.

If you're doubtful about the relevance of crits for Rampage and Vorpal just ask your Warrior friend to show you the difference between a NQ and a Mighty Strikes'ed weapon skill; scoring a critical on all the hits is possible (although rare) even without 2hr anyhow, most of the times, adding MS to one of the aforementioned WS equals a doubled damage output.

however I've tested it multiple times and AF2 Legs produce higher average WS numbers.

False.

(...)

It's basically 7.5 acc vs 5 STR.

I'm sorry but in more situations than not anyone saying they crit signicantly more with Haidate is a victem of a placebo effect.

However, I'd still have to say that DEX does more for accuracy than anything else with Rampage. It's been proved that small improvements of DEX don't influence your actual critical hit-rate with melee attacks more than 1-2%, so really I wouldn't rely on equiping something with +DEX in hope of landing criticals much more often.

Guess who was wrong (about the fact that stacking up DEX gear, where possible and without sacrificing too much Atk/STR (to some extent), for multi-hit WS increased dramatically the chances of performing critical hits, not just about Haidate)!

Shame that I don't have enough time to play anymore to conduct a thorough test about the effects of a DEX heavy build on Rampage and Vorpal crits rate/damage because my experience repeatedly suggested me the importance of loldexterity and I've been preaching this for a while. [/quote:efa09]

You really never fail to amaze me, any time you feel you have a chance to even prove anything I say to be slightly incorrect you take it out of context, put words in my mouth, and in doing so try to prove yourself right and me wrong. The fact I'm listed as 'famous anon' doesn't matter as it's a direct quote meant to discredit what I said, so don't think that excuses you from my rebutal and being the one that started this again.

Awesome job at failing at it again though, and not only proving how obsessed you are with what I say but showing your failure to understand what I was trying to say.

This is seriously the 4th time now you've done this, try not to be too obvious you're stalking me next time ok?

And what the hell at quoting my response to someone else's post with your post to make it sound like I was responding to you? I wasn't talking to you in that post and it's overwhelmingly obvious, you're discussing the viability of a DEX build for Rampage and I'm discussing strictly Byakko's Haidate vs AF2. Nice job at trying to make yourself look right by quoting incorrectly, but that's still pretty low.

First of all, I was talking strictly about Haidate's affect alone on your critical hit-rate (or any equipment that adds up to a small amount of DEX in place of it). Where am I ever comparing a high DEX build versus a no DEX build in that post? Where in this post does it show Haidate being the sole influence responsible for his critical hit rate rising so much? No where, you know why? Because as I said in that post your critical hit rate will not be largely effected by Haidate alone. And, anyone who claims to go from a 10% critical hit-rate without it, and a 15% critical hit-rate with it and nothing else changing, is obviously suffering from a placebo effect. As I said.

I thought the reading level of the all the posters here would be a little higher than middle school, but I guess I was wrong in assuming that. I'll fix it for you, making it extemely repetitive so you can stop assuming what I meant and actually see it.

(...)

It's basically 7.5 acc vs 5 STR.

I'm sorry but in more situations than not anyone saying they crit signicantly more with the +DEX from Byakko's Haidate (vs not having it) is a victem of a placebo effect.

However, I'd still have to say that the +DEX from Byakko's Haidate (or a similar amount from another source) does more for accuracy than anything else with Rampage. It's been proved that the small improvements of the +DEX from Byakko's Haidate (or a similar amount from another source) alone don't influence your actual critical hit-rate with melee attacks more than 1-2% (the +DEX from Byakko's Haidate (or a similar amount from another source) resulting in a 1-2% improvement), so really I wouldn't rely on equiping the +DEX from Byakko's Haidate (or a similar amount from another source) in hope of landing criticals much more often.

Is that clear enough for you? The whole original point of the first line was over AF2 vs Byakko's Haidate, and I was addressing that concern in my post. I was not discussing anything about the viability of an all out DEX Rampage build vs anything else. I have no experiences with a high DEX rampage build and I've never claimed to know anything about it, only small builds.

Oh look, I even found the posts I was addressing:

What do you use/what do you think is ideal for Rampage @ 75? Mainly interested in legs, hands and ears, but any input is welcome into overall setup or whatever. Do you have a different setup when Berserk/Aggressor are down?

I don't think I would be the only one to tell you to WS in Byakko's for rampage, throw out the hose :/

And why did you leave this out? This even says I'm not addressing the viability of an all out DEX build. Leaving out parts of my posts in your quotes that might go against your thought of me being wrong? Also very low.

To clarify I wasn't questioning whether or not Rampage damage could be improved by +DEX, just DEXs involvement as an actual WS modifier.

Regardless, back on the haidate topic, I and many others have tested the effect of Haidate alone and I can even post parses for you. Haidate alone will not improve your critical hit-rate more than 1-2% on average in my and everyone else's tests (whether you get the +15 from haidate or +15 from no haidate and other DEX gear doesn't matter, it's still +15), and until you prove otherwise you have no grounds to act like what you say goes.

I don't just spout all this information out of my ass (unlike you who provides no evidence I've ever seen for your assumptions other than a DA test with Ridill, and simply answers with "False." when you believe someone is wrong about something), I actually test it and observe other people's tests, and you just have some sort of need to always attempt to say I'm wrong regardless. Why do you think no one ever posted evidence of how to get such a high critical hit-rate until now? Because no one even had these results from smaller amounts of +DEX, because small amounts of +DEX did almost nothing. Even if I made a point about small amounts of +DEX being useless it would be correct, because as the OP's tests prove you need large amounts to get the returns he did. Just to make it clear, there's a difference between small and large.

From my point of view and most of other poster's point of view here in this thread, the evidence Vaan posted supports what was said in the last thread... That there are tiers of DEX. Any large amounts of +DEX before the tier will not have a major effect on your critical hit-rate, and +15 DEX being a relatively small amount alone makes what I said in that post to be correct. We already know from the evidence in these posts that if there is a tier then it is high, and even with Haidate and around +25 DEX from other sources you would still fall short of the tier making most of the DEX before the tier worth much less than what the OP's tests suggests. Either way what I said wasn't incorrect, and either way what you said had nothing to do with suggesting any sort of tiers needed to be breaked in order to get noticeable returns. Which is the most important part of the DEX build as proved by this post.

Before I finish I just want to repeat this so that maybe it sticks in your head this time.

Awesome job at failing at it again, and not only proving how obsessed you are with what I say but showing your failure to understand what I was trying to say. I was not wrong in what I said in that post, and quoting it as an example of being wrong just demonstrates your failure to understand what I was trying to say, and that your way of interpreting something isn't the only way.

The first part of my original post was a comparison between the effects of Haidate alone between the effects of AF2 alone (or any similiar amounts of total DEX), and +15 DEX alone will not have an effect larger than 1-2%. The new information this thread provides is that the statement above is still correct unless you stack a great deal of other DEX gear with it, and I didn't even address the effects of large amounts of DEX gear in Rampage in that post to begin with. Even so there's no evidence yet of a DEX Rampage build outweighing a STR/attack build, although it would be an interesting test. Either way, you failed again.



EDITx7: Bunch of times adding quotes from old posts to make things clear.

EDIT8: The first two paragraphs of your original quote didn't return results in search in neither BG, KI, or google. It could just be a mistake on my part, but the searches are normally relatively accurate (more accurate than inaccurate). I either made a mistake, or you misquoted, or made that quote up and acted like you've been saying that all along? Link to the thread?

[Blackice]

You still have a butter knife for a relic punk. (I'm on lunch at work and just decided that could probably give you a laugh instead of staying pissed off at retards.)

[RKenshin]

Just shows how weak you are if I can own you with a butter knife fatso!

(I'm not pissed btw, but thanks lol... I'm just about immune to Sea's bable now. It's just a whole bunch of me saying 'my/other people's tests and experinces show this' vs him saying 'you're wrong because I said so even though I don't have any evidence.' Doesn't mean I don't want to get involved in a good argument though!)

[Saga]

ownage

This just in: I'm getting reports from all over the country that...yes, that in fact, Searain's genatallia has shrunk into nothingness due to the ownage instigated by one "RKenshin." That is all.

Edit: I can't read.

[divisortheory]

ownage

This just in: I'm getting reports from all over the country that...yes, that in fact, Genosync's genatallia has shrunk into nothingness due to the ownage instigated by one "RKenshin." That is all.

Sorry for the stupid question, but I don't see Genosync having posted a single message in this thread??

[Tajin]

^

beat me to it

[Ryko]

Just shows how weak you are if I can own you with a butter knife fatso!

(I'm not pissed btw, but thanks lol... I'm just about immune to Sea's bable now. It's just a whole bunch of me saying 'my/other people's tests and experinces show this' vs him saying 'you're wrong because I said so even though I don't have any evidence.' Doesn't mean I don't want to get involved in a good argument though!)

Eh home boy took a joking topic a long ass time ago by me out of context and wrote some massive self-important blog insert about it back when he was still sporting a hauberk and double axes and I had long since accomplished what he later was proud to do. You'd assume someone who's gotten basically everything they wanted wouldn't still be obsessed with trying to validate his existence in comparison to others on different servers but I guess old habits die hard. I wouldn't worry too much about it, he has some bone to pick with people who are established and does so through the power of misdirection, misconception, and ESL.

[Saga]

You got me, I'll edit and put Searain in there. >_> I had just finished looking at Geosync's thread in the spam forum, and for some reason I thought Ruke was quote training Geosync's argument, even though it clearly said Searain on it..sorry sorry sorry. >_>

[RKenshin]

Eh home boy took a joking topic a long ass time ago by me out of context and wrote some massive self-important blog insert about it back when he was still sporting a hauberk and double axes and I had long since accomplished what he later was proud to do. You'd assume someone who's gotten basically everything they wanted wouldn't still be obsessed with trying to validate his existence in comparison to others on different servers but I guess old habits die hard. I wouldn't worry too much about it, he has some bone to pick with people who are established and does so through the power of misdirection, misconception, and ESL.

First time for everything, and I think this'll be my first QFT.

EDIT: Actually, can we get back on topic? I'm interested in more results if other people can test, I'll also try to if I get time.

For the tier subject though, it might be harder than it seems to test/find out what the tier would be. If anything I'm pretty sure it would vary from mob to mob, since as far as I remember (correct if wrong) your critical hit-rate is determined by some equation involving your DEX and the mob's AGI. If we could find out the mob's AGI we could maybe put together what levels of DEX are needed to get these results, and at what point would more DEX be wasted (seems to have diminishing returns?).

[BRP]

RKenshin why are you quoting yourself?

[RKenshin]

In which regard?

In my response to Sea I did it to clarify to him what I was trying to say, and also did it once to show a line in the post he quoted that he left out.

With the response to Ryko I was just lazy and didn't think to delete what I already said (clicking quote automatically includes the entire post). I usually do but it just didn't cross my mind, I guess I'll fix it? lol

[Demitrius]

Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.

[RKenshin]

I had a feeling it'd be a woosh, but I just don't get it.

I need more sleep.

[Blackice]

It was a reference to the Ryko/Ruke confusion retard, go to bed.

[Demitrius]

Who gets six thousand PMs a day asking why they haven't updated their LJ in an hour?

Besides you, I mean.

[RKenshin]

Wow, big woosh... I can't believe I missed that lol..

[Allundaria]

Which reminds me, is it time for another "ruke update your livejournal" pressure thread to be launched?

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

...?

I haven't even read completely your reply because I'm sure it's gonna be once again an epitome of the classic "I'm right because I'm Rkenshin" bullshit that you're used to spam on forums whenever someone tries to disagree with your biased conclusions; I purposedly omitted quoting your name because it wasn't intended as a personal attack (albeit I sincerely find quite homorous your desperately wanting to be right at any cost, 24/7, regardless the subject, writing essays to persuade the audience with tempting words of wisdom), I just picked your post as partial example to provide a cue to a post about a generally accepted and widespread convincement that claims the negligeable influence of Dexterity, even when stacked, on the mechanism that triggers criticals during Weapon Skills.

The aforementioned test says otherwise for regular melee hits (discrediting the previous theory, venerated as incontrovertible truth by the majority of people of course, because xyz guy on whatever forum said so and backed up his statements with...apparently flawed data), somewhat confirming my hypothesis and the conclusions drawn from my experience.

I'm pretty sure that whereas a few points of DEX won't make or break your crits hit rate during Rampage/Vorpal switching Alky/Cuisses with Heca/Haidate (and hipotethically one of the STR earrings with lolPixie?), adding +2x~ Dexterity to your WS set up on top of the usual +40ish is certainly going to make a difference on your average WS numbers, especially in situations where you don't have enough Atk. available from songs/food, if you're actually going to score a few more criticals, I'm extremely surprised that you haven't figured this out yet just meriting Warrior, anyway uh, whatever.

In any case, that's besides the point: either way who cares, come on (my post was more of a tease than anything else, unless you think that doing 10~20 more or less damage on your Rampages has any relevance for your gaming experience), baffles me that someone would get so bothered and caustic for being anonymously quoted about such a meaningless subject, stop being so friggin touchy and relax and lol @ people considering themselves "established" in a videogame, I'll leave you guys to your mind-numbing reciprocal ass-licking while I proceed to enjoy the game with my friends, getting Khazam keys to my taruMNK mule.

Seriously though, my way of wording things might be quite abrupt at times and my grasp of english not completely flawless yet but you guys are just plain pathetic and gratuitously harsh sometimes. Oh well.

[Blackice]

Which reminds me, is it time for another "ruke update your livejournal" pressure thread to be launched?

Should have bugged him while he was on Spring Break, you're SOL now.