Blade Jin TP return question

[Lawliet]

Is 11% return on Blade Jin with Senj/Unji + Rajas a missed hit or a full hit?

[cassiraa]

Shouldn't take you more than 10 minutes to test this three to ten on an EP mob that you have capped acc on, with a SJ that has no native DA.

Newbie Player != Apathetic player who can't figure stuff out.

[Terrestrialrage]

I get 12% with Senj/Fudo on a full hit, might lower with the Unji delay?

[Naver]

Formula is credited to VZX
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/

276(maneater)+236(ridill) = 512
512 x 0.85(DWII) = 435
435/2 = 217 delay per hand

5+ (217 - 180)x6.5/270 = 5.8 TP per hand
with Store TP : 5.8* (1 + 0.5(rajas)+0.1(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand
dual wield with 2 swings hit = 6.1 x 2 = 12.2TP
with 4 additional hit from rampage = 12.2 + 4x1 TP/hit = 16.2 TP
with DA : you know it

That was concerning the TP gain for WAR. Just plug in your numbers I suppose. DWIV is 30% delay reduction, so instead of .85 use .70.

Guess I'll do the math for you since I'm bored. Hope it comes out right. ^^
Noticed an error in VZX's math, shouldn't the Store TP part be:
5.8* (1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand?
Also where would Suppa fit into this equation? instead of .70 use .65?

227(Senj)+201(Unji) = 428
428 x 0.70 = 299.6
299/2 = 149.8 delay per hand

5+ (149-180)*6.5/270 = 4.2 TP per hand
with Store TP: 4.2*(1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 4.4 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 4.4 x 2 = 8.8 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 8.8 +2x1 TP/hit = 10.8 TP

[VZX]

Formula is credited to VZX
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/

276(maneater)+236(ridill) = 512
512 x 0.85(DWII) = 435
435/2 = 217 delay per hand

5+ (217 - 180)x6.5/270 = 5.8 TP per hand
with Store TP : 5.8* (1 + 0.5(rajas)+0.1(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand
dual wield with 2 swings hit = 6.1 x 2 = 12.2TP
with 4 additional hit from rampage = 12.2 + 4x1 TP/hit = 16.2 TP
with DA : you know it

That was concerning the TP gain for WAR. Just plug in your numbers I suppose. DWIV is 30% delay reduction, so instead of .85 use .70.

Guess I'll do the math for you since I'm bored. Hope it comes out right. ^^
Noticed an error in VZX's math, shouldn't the Store TP part be:
5.8* (1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand?

The same number?

Also where would Suppa fit into this equation? instead of .70 use .65?

delay_sum x (1-dual_wield_coeff), and yep, use .65 for the 1-dual_wield_coeff

[Ashky]

Does the Suppa decrease TP return on a WS or Jin in this case? I leave it equipped when I WS because I don't have enough macro lines to change everything I would like... Maybe I should change it then if it's lowering my TP return?

[VZX]

Dual wield decreases weapon delay (thus, there might be less TP return). haste does not decrease TP return

[SamanosukeShiva]

I get 12% with senj/fudo too on full hit

[Amastacia]

Full return on Senj/Unji is 11% whether or not you're using Rajas.

[Naver]

Formula is credited to VZX
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/

276(maneater)+236(ridill) = 512
512 x 0.85(DWII) = 435
435/2 = 217 delay per hand

5+ (217 - 180)x6.5/270 = 5.8 TP per hand
with Store TP : 5.8* (1 + 0.5(rajas)+0.1(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand
dual wield with 2 swings hit = 6.1 x 2 = 12.2TP
with 4 additional hit from rampage = 12.2 + 4x1 TP/hit = 16.2 TP
with DA : you know it

That was concerning the TP gain for WAR. Just plug in your numbers I suppose. DWIV is 30% delay reduction, so instead of .85 use .70.

Guess I'll do the math for you since I'm bored. Hope it comes out right. ^^
Noticed an error in VZX's math, shouldn't the Store TP part be:
5.8* (1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand?

The same number?

Also where would Suppa fit into this equation? instead of .70 use .65?

delay_sum x (1-dual_wield_coeff), and yep, use .65 for the 1-dual_wield_coeff

I don't know if you noticed, BUT... perhaps a typo on your part? look closely to your equation for Store TP, and the one I wrote.

[VZX]

Ah a typo

yeah, often my hands and my brain doesn't synchronize properly

[DreizehnOfSiren]

Formula is credited to VZX
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/

276(maneater)+236(ridill) = 512
512 x 0.85(DWII) = 435
435/2 = 217 delay per hand

5+ (217 - 180)x6.5/270 = 5.8 TP per hand
with Store TP : 5.8* (1 + 0.5(rajas)+0.1(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand
dual wield with 2 swings hit = 6.1 x 2 = 12.2TP
with 4 additional hit from rampage = 12.2 + 4x1 TP/hit = 16.2 TP
with DA : you know it

That was concerning the TP gain for WAR. Just plug in your numbers I suppose. DWIV is 30% delay reduction, so instead of .85 use .70.

Guess I'll do the math for you since I'm bored. Hope it comes out right. ^^
Noticed an error in VZX's math, shouldn't the Store TP part be:
5.8* (1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 6.1 per hand?
Also where would Suppa fit into this equation? instead of .70 use .65?

227(Senj)+201(Unji) = 428
428 x 0.70 = 299.6
299/2 = 149.8 delay per hand

5+ (149-180)*6.5/270 = 4.2 TP per hand
with Store TP: 4.2*(1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 4.4 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 4.4 x 2 = 8.8 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 8.8 +2x1 TP/hit = 10.8 TP

this isn't entirely correct. Let me fix it:

227(Senj)+201(Unji) = 428
428 x 0.65 = 278
278/2 = 139 delay per hand

5+ (139-180)*1.5/180 = 4.6 TP per hand
with Store TP: 4.6*(1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 4.8 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 4.8 x 2 = 9.6 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 9.6 +2x1 TP/hit = 11.6 TP

the formula for TP changes if you go below 180 delay on weapons.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/TP

Note: 11.6TP is what Amastacia got back on her WS.

If you do it without rajas, you get:
with Store TP: 4.6*(1+0.01(brutal)) = 4.6 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 4.6 x 2 = 9.2 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 9.2 +2x1 TP/hit = 11.2 TP

Both give back what s/he said. There you go.

[DreizehnOfSiren]

For Senj/Fudo it looks like this:

227(Senj)+227(Fudo) = 454
454 x 0.65 = 295
295/2 = 147 delay per hand

5+ (147-180)*1.5/180 = 4.7 TP per hand
with Store TP: 4.7*(1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 4.9 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 4.9 x 2 = 9.8 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 9.8 +2x1 TP/hit = 11.8 TP

Hmm.. but that's not the 12TP SamanosukeShiva was reporting.

I wonder if SE doesn't "chop off" (round down) before the Store TP calculation, which would make the following:

5+ (147-180)*1.5/180 = 4.725 TP per hand
with Store TP: 4.725*(1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 5.0085 = 5.0 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 5.0 x 2 = 10.0 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 10.0 +2x1 TP/hit = 12.0 TP

Can anyone confirm this?

[VZX]

I'm pretty sure TP truncation only goes to 1 digit decimal
recheck the DW equipment?

[DreizehnOfSiren]

well it does after every hit only get cut off at 1/10th, but when they are calculating it, it might not be rounded.

[aurik]

I'm pretty sure it is truncated at every step. It's not that they explicitly call floor, but instead it's a limitation of the data unit they use.

[Sidra]

Just a point to add to this, Store TP also effects the extra hits of 1.0. Because of this as a Samurai there are varying levels of Store TP and weapon delay that will cause a 1 hit weaponskill to give 2 more TP than the single hit (eg. a 15TP WS returning 17 via a double attack proc). Another example is how when I farm Diatrymas with a polearm I get 19TP for a full 5 hit, but when I get a brutal proc my TP Jumps to 21.

I am no expert on how game truncates TP, but I just wanted to add that because looking through your calcualtions I did not see Store TP effects added to the 1.0 strikes.

If the game truncates immediately, there would be no difference between and 1 and 1.06 TP. But if it adds them together then truncates you end up with 2.1, which could come into play if you are X.9 somehow before the extra hits.

[VZX]

Samanosuke's first 75 is SAM, probably he doesn't have suppa?

[DreizehnOfSiren]

hmm... so the formula is more like this..

5+ (139-180)*1.5/180 = 4.6 TP per hand
with Store TP: 4.6*(1+0.05(rajas)+0.01(brutal)) = 4.8 TP per hand
dual weild with 2 swings hit = 4.8 x 2 = 9.6 TP
with 2 additional hits from Jin = 9.6 +2x1 TP/hit = 11.6 TP

would be more like this:

5+ (139-180)*1.5/180 = 4.6 TP per hand

therefore, you total TP (with 2 additional hits from Jin) looks like this.

(4.6 + 4.6 + 1 +1)*(1.06) = Total TP Return = 11.8 (which was 11.6) before