lolcrawford (Official NBA Playoff Thread)

[Andarvi]

Yeah, i think jordan would have won 5 rings w/o pippen. Players like pippen and KG aren't rare, as a matter of fact, id put them around a dime a dozen. If it wasn't pippen, it would have been someone else that he elevated to obscene proportions. FYI, KG averages about 6 more RPG and 4 more PPG about the same FG%, better FT%, etc, etc than pippen does. You think KG is a top 50 player of all time? I wouldnt put him in the top 100. As far as the kobe/KG reference, Lamar Odem averages more PPG and RPG, and a bit less than 1 APG than pippen. Wheres the other 2 championships?

KG is a top 50 of all time. He'll make this list under the same category as barkley as a great to never win a ring.

Odom is a plug. Stats dont necessarily tell the whole story. Just because the dont get as many points or boards or whatever doesnt mean that the other team is adjusting themselves defensively in order to accomodate the player, thus increasing their teamates stats.

[Deejay]

Yeah, i think jordan would have won 5 rings w/o pippen. Players like pippen and KG aren't rare, as a matter of fact, id put them around a dime a dozen. If it wasn't pippen, it would have been someone else that he elevated to obscene proportions. FYI, KG averages about 6 more RPG and 4 more PPG about the same FG%, better FT%, etc, etc than pippen does. You think KG is a top 50 player of all time? I wouldnt put him in the top 100. As far as the kobe/KG reference, Lamar Odem averages more PPG and RPG, and a bit less than 1 APG than pippen. Wheres the other 2 championships?

Are we talking about the same Lamar Odom? At the same point of both players careers, Pippen averaged 21 ppg compared to Odom mediocre 15. 9 rebounds per game to Odom's 10. And 6 assists to Odom's 4.5 And thats not even counting the fact that he was first team all defense from 91-2000. lawl Did MJ teach him how to play D too? He also had 7 straight All-Star appearences compared to Odoms 2 appearences as a spectator.

Odom sucks and shouldnt even be mentioned in the same breath as pippen. You're also forgetting to mention that the Bulls won damn near 60 games without Jordan. The Lakers without Kobe are worse than the Bobcats.

Kobe Bryant is the 2nd best 2 guard of all time.

[GRT]

not that i've watched many games this season, but every time i watched the lakers play, odom had such a minor presence on the court i sometimes forget he's even there

i mean when i think about a star player, i think about someone has what they call a "killer instinct," that he's aggressive amoung other things... odom just seems to me so passive and reluctant somehow, i can't count how many times i've seen him have a great scoring opportunity but passes the ball away

can't believe he and wade were once put in the same category... even tony parker is more effective on the court than odom in my opinion

[Deejay]

Odom is a role player, and good 3rd option at best. He will always be in the same category as the Eddie Jones, Larry Hughes, etc etc. Theyre ok, and sometimes good, but thats it.

[Tyche]

KG a top 50 player of all time? ALL TIME? Are you fucking crazy? He has no leadership skills, and no support. He compiles stats at the expense of poor support. As far as the bulls winning 50+ games without jordan, id hope so, they were a dynasty. Even without jordan they had a VERY VERY good team. Kerr, Armstrong, Cartwright, Kukoc...all of which are a hell of a lot better than Kobe's support. They get in a pinch, they have no leader, and they fold in the 2nd round of the playoffs with a very talented team. Jordan comes back half way through the next season, with a team that lost key players to free agency, during a hell of a bulls slump, and the team turns completely around and makes the playoffs by elevating the new people (Went from a .500 team midway through the 94 seasson to a .700 win team when jordan came back). Eventually they lose to a disgustingly talented Magic team with hardaway, Shaq, and Grant. Next season they win the most games in NBA history. You think jordan doesn't elevate the people around him lol?


I never said that Odom was better than pippen, but their stats are similiar (as similiar as pippen and KG and you made that comparison). I agree stats are overrated because they don't reflect competition, supporting cast, current rules, leadership skills, clutch ability, etc. Even if you put KG on the lakers, they would still not win another championship. They have no leader on that team (and don't say Kobe, Shaq was the leader during the 3peat). Kobe + KG would be like the knicks of a couple years ago. 2 "all about me" players who would combine for 75FGA a game. Put Jason Kidd on the lakers then we'll start talking about championships. Theres so many intangible in basketball that stats do not reflect, and jordan was amoung the best in all of them. Kobe is a scoring god and a hell of a shooter in an NBA that plays no defense in the regular season and rules that were changed to support high scoring guards.

[GRT]

I don't think it's possible to hire a new guy to take up the "leadership" position in the Lakers, simply because of how big the name Kobe is in the league. Few other people in the NBA right now can come in and have greater influence over the team than Kobe, and all of those people who can will never be a Laker. A Lakers fan can only hope Kobe can develope better leadership skills, because I don't think there's any other way. Kobe will be the leader in Lakers as long as he plays in this team, whether he's good at it or not.

[kisada]

you said pippen is a dime a dozen player and compared his stats to odom, and then go on to say stats are overrated... so what point are you making exactly again?

pippin was an absolutely dominating defensive player, one of the best ever and a better one than jordan. considering how elite jordan was (2 dpoys if i'm not mistaken), that's saying quite a bit. good defensive players make it easy for you to score, and someone like pippen made MJ's job significantly easier. odom on the other hand is terrible in the clutch, a horrible defender, and has the mentality of a failure. jordan would have just punched him in the face like he did to steve kerr because odom is such a little child.

saying he could win by switching odom and pippen cause their stats were similar is an egregious mistake in logic.


and if you think kg just picks up stats on a bad team, you shoulda seen just how much better he played the first year he had spree and cassell (first two decent players he ever had on his team). don't think there was any question who the MVP was that year. doesn't mean he wasn't doing it past couple years, but he definitely elevated his play with better players.

[Yangsing]

NBA is the worst professional league out there... well, besides the WNBA of course.

I would say hockey or soccer is worse. Well, nothings as bad as the WNBA.

[Tyche]

Someone (forgot whom) said KG was about the same guy statistically as pippen, i was just pointing out some other players that were the same as pippen statistically. Odom having similiar stats as pippen and me saying that odom isnt near the player further emphasizes my point about intangibles.

And jordan was on 9 first team all defense, Pippen was on 8. Jordan has 1 defensive player of the year, Pippen has 0. Jordan averaged about a steal more per game, and they averaged the same blocks per game.

Also, KGs stats in the 03-04 season are comparable to just about every other season of his career, not much variation at all. After Spree and Casell left, still not much of a variation. KG may not be a top 25 player in the NBA right now, much less of all time.

It's been argued whether Pippen is even a hall of famer, much less a top 50 player of all time.

There is no arguing about Pippen’s defensive ability. He was
named to eight straight All-NBA defensive first teams and that is
an accomplishment that can’t be diminished by the partnership
with Jordan. It is only a shot blocker, aka Dikembi Mutumbo (Tyche Edit: Hello? Rodman? Big red fire truck?),
which can increase a player’s defensive stats by giving him the
freedom to take chances.

Pippen was also part of six championship teams as well as the
72-victory team. The combination of championships and
defensive prowess may be enough to get Pippen into the hall.

However Pippen’s career numbers are anything but stellar and
the numbers were inflated due to two words: Michael Jordan.
Jordan averaged over 30 points for his career. Jordan also
averaged more double teams than any other player on the
Bulls.

Jordan ability to score made racking up assists that much easier
for Pippen. Pippen’s career average for assists was 5.2 per
game. Many of those assists were earned the easy way,
passing to Jordan.

The same holds true for scoring. Pippen, never known as a
shooter or scorer, averaged 16.1 points per game for his career.
With Jordan constantly being doubled teamed, Pippen benefited
from more open looks, yet only scored a modest 16 points per
game.

Because Pippen’s numbers do not match that of a hall of fame
player the best measure is to consider Pippen in line with other
small and point forwards during his playing career.

I think this sums it up well.

[Andarvi]

Someone (forgot whom) said KG was about the same guy statistically as pippen, i was just pointing out some other players that were the same as pippen statistically. Odom having similiar stats as pippen and me saying that odom isnt near the player further emphasizes my point about intangibles.

And jordan was on 9 first team all defense, Pippen was on 8. Jordan has 1 defensive player of the year, Pippen has 0. Jordan averaged about a steal more per game, and they averaged the same blocks per game.

Also, KGs stats in the 03-04 season are comparable to just about every other season of his career, not much variation at all. After Spree and Casell left, still not much of a variation. KG may not be a top 25 player in the NBA right now, much less of all time.
It's been argued whether Pippen is even a hall of famer, much less a top 50 player of all time.

There is no arguing about Pippen’s defensive ability. He was
named to eight straight All-NBA defensive first teams and that is
an accomplishment that can’t be diminished by the partnership
with Jordan. It is only a shot blocker, aka Dikembi Mutumbo (Tyche Edit: Hello? Rodman? Big red fire truck?),
which can increase a player’s defensive stats by giving him the
freedom to take chances.

Pippen was also part of six championship teams as well as the
72-victory team. The combination of championships and
defensive prowess may be enough to get Pippen into the hall.

However Pippen’s career numbers are anything but stellar and
the numbers were inflated due to two words: Michael Jordan.
Jordan averaged over 30 points for his career. Jordan also
averaged more double teams than any other player on the
Bulls.

Jordan ability to score made racking up assists that much easier
for Pippen. Pippen’s career average for assists was 5.2 per
game. Many of those assists were earned the easy way,
passing to Jordan.

The same holds true for scoring. Pippen, never known as a
shooter or scorer, averaged 16.1 points per game for his career.
With Jordan constantly being doubled teamed, Pippen benefited
from more open looks, yet only scored a modest 16 points per
game.

Because Pippen’s numbers do not match that of a hall of fame
player the best measure is to consider Pippen in line with other
small and point forwards during his playing career.

I think this sums it up well.

Most ridiculous statement in thread. Read any NBA analysts interpretation of KG and they say hes a superstar. He is definately one of the best 25 in the league now, no question. http://www.nba.com/sonics/news/top100_feb07.html
There is an article where 3 different analysts place him in the top 10 (granted they are just local seattle people).

[Tyche]

I think he's incredibly overrated, sorry, i do. He averages in the top 20 in turnovers, and the only stat he's in the top 10 in is rebounds. He's a player that is good in a lot of categories, but not great in any. If we had a draft in the NBA right now, i just don't know where id pick him.

1. Steve nash
Kobe Bryant
dwayne wade
LBJ
Shaq
Dirk
Tim Duncan
Chris Paul
Rich Hamilton
Amare Stoudamire
Chris Bosh


I dunno, maybe top 15, it's a subjective opinion. He's a stat compiler, but not a winner. Great fantasy player, not a great player to build a team around. He certainly isn't anywhere close to the top 50 of all time.

Edit: Wow, i forgot about kobe...

[Keno]

I miss jordan, he just flew wherever he needed to go

Seriously whenever Jordan was on the court it was like "god mode turn on lawlz" and then he'd fly around... I <3 the 90s

[jimbo]

I think he's incredibly overrated, sorry, i do. He averages in the top 20 in turnovers, and the only stat he's in the top 10 in is rebounds. He's a player that is good in a lot of categories, but not great in any. If we had a draft in the NBA right now, i just don't know where id pick him.

1. Steve nash
Kobe Bryant
dwayne wade
LBJ
Shaq
Dirk
Tim Duncan
Chris Paul
Rich Hamilton
Amare Stoudamire
Chris Bosh


I dunno, maybe top 15, it's a subjective opinion. He's a stat compiler, but not a winner. Great fantasy player, not a great player to build a team around. He certainly isn't anywhere close to the top 50 of all time.

Edit: Wow, i forgot about kobe...

this season:
KG - 22.4pts/12.8rebs/47.6%FG
Dirt - 24.6/8.9rebs/50.2%FG
Timmy - 20pts/10.6rebs/54.6%FG

The stats are pretty close to each other, if you wanna look at defensive numbers than duncan and KG easily blow dirt's away. All 3 are pretty unguardable but ya know the difference?

Dirt has Howard, Stackhouse and Terry
Duncan - Bowen, Ginobili, Parker,Horry(clutch)
KG -

when dirt and timmy gets the ball, opposing teams are scared to double, sometimes they will and sometimes they wont whereas when KG gets the ball the other team will come at him like sharks and yet hes putting up numbers as good as the other two.

If anything, i think you are underrating him mang. The only reason i wouldnt start a franchise with KG would be his salary is pretty sick

edit: typed the same sentence twice D:

[GRT]

isn't KG's salary like almost half of wolves' cap?

would explain why wolves don't have any other stars... no extra budget lol

[GRT]

did anybody watch houston vs. utah just now?

i mean wtf? that's a playoff game? that was like the worst game i've watched in a year

and i heard shaq got owned by ben wallace XD

[Tyche]

Refs were actually calling fouls against shaq lol.