What should an HNM WHM merit? (Tank party/Regen discussion)

[Therin]

Not sure if this topic is worthy for Advanced Player Discussion so I put it here.

A couple WHMs and I just finished a long debate about what a good HNM WHM should choose to merit for HNM fights. Obviously Cure cast is a very important one, but what else?

Now obviously before I get into discussing my argument I'll assume that we all know Regen is extremely useful for EXP parties and merits, as well as small-man sea and sky runs where you're running around and want to cure people over time. It's also very useful for healing DDs since it's more MP efficient than actually curing them, assuming it lasts for the entire duration without them hitting 100% HP before it wears off.

Anyway, my argument (and another LS WHM of mine) is that with the onset of PLD/NIN and RDM/NIN tanks for a lot of HNMs, the usefulness of Regen in general has dwindled significantly. The reason I say this is because, as a tank, I know I almost NEVER leave myself below 100% HP. As long as I'm below 100% HP and I have MP to spare, I'll be dropping small cures or even Cure IV's (depending upon my HP%) on myself to keep myself capped. It's part of the main hate generation process.

So, because of this, Regen III seems like it wouldn't do nearly as much for a tank. For 62 MP it lasts 60 seconds, and recovers 20 HP per tick (23 with C. Briault and 28 with max merits), which means a total recovery of 400-560 HP depending upon the strength of your Regen setup. However, when a tank sits at 100% HP for well above half of the duration of the spell, it's usefulness is halved, making it actually less MP efficient than simply curing said tank with Cure spells.

So it seems to me this makes Regen only useful outside of tank party. Most mages in my shell disagreed, however, and laughed at the idea of meriting bar-spells for the +MDB and +resist over Regen. What do you think?

*EDIT* I forgot to add Divine Seal to the merits because I figured it wasn't even worth mentioning, but I guess some people might like to merit it. Oh well. >_>

[RKenshin]

In class (and bored) so keeping this short(ish)!

But, over anything else Barspell merits are the most important IMO. The extra resist points and the magic defense bonus is like having an extra three Shellra IV merits against the corresponding elements. And it goes without saying how big of a role magic defense plays in the game now.

Whether or not you merit Cure casting time/Regen III as the second option is debatable and seems to be more based on preferences with playstyle than anything. Some WHMs prefer spamming Regen III for managing MP and hate more efficiently, and stacked with merits and AF2 body it works great. Others don't use Regen III often and would rather spam low level Cures for similiar MP/hate management efficiency. Then there are mixes of the two.

Personally though, I voted for Regen III + Barspell. I'd totally be a Regen III WHM.

[Grey Jorildyn]

went with cure casting time and barspell merits as my favorite WHM has those capped out and i like the quick cures in a bind. hate regen III. i yell at WHMs that cast that on me.

[Zhais]

i yell at WHMs that cast that on me.

Do explain. To me that screams 'wtf'

[Akroma_Seraph]

i yell at WHMs that cast that on me.

Do explain. To me that screams 'wtf'

I myself on PLD would rather the WHM not touch me unless I am getting my ass handed to me. As in under 50% HP. I like to use every bit of my MP towards curing myself and generating hate. At times I will macro (none blinking) gear swaps to increase my MAXHP just to have more to cure. I also hate Regen III in most cases, because I rarely every sub /war for anything anymore.

[Therin]

i yell at WHMs that cast that on me.

Do explain. To me that screams 'wtf'

I myself on PLD would rather the WHM not touch me unless I am getting my ass handed to me. As in under 50% HP. I like to use every bit of my MP towards curing myself and generating hate. At times I will macro (none blinking) gear swaps to increase my MAXHP just to have more to cure. I also hate Regen III in most cases, because I rarely every sub /war for anything anymore.

That is exactly my style, except I engage and throw on Berserker's Torque to have more to cure, instead of macroing HP gear. In my opinion, with Ballad/March/Haste/Refresh you should be completely self-sufficient except for -na spells, buffs (Protect, Shell and Bar- spells), and the occasional Cure V after something nasty happens.

[Jeryhn]

Cure Cast + Barspell plz.

If my RDM is putting up stronger Barspells than your WHM, you're fucking doing it wrong.

[Damane]

my whm has

barspells
regen

and then shellra V and devotion (mini convert for tanks MP )

devotion, shellra V barspells are VERY nice for endgame. Regen merits are debatable. you can notice the big drop in magic dmg when you have fully merited shellra V and barspells on

[Vail]

i yell at WHMs that cast that on me.

Do explain. To me that screams 'wtf'

I myself on PLD would rather the WHM not touch me unless I am getting my ass handed to me. As in under 50% HP. I like to use every bit of my MP towards curing myself and generating hate. At times I will macro (none blinking) gear swaps to increase my MAXHP just to have more to cure. I also hate Regen III in most cases, because I rarely every sub /war for anything anymore.

That is exactly my style, except I engage and throw on Berserker's Torque to have more to cure, instead of macroing HP gear. In my opinion, with Ballad/March/Haste/Refresh you should be completely self-sufficient except for -na spells, buffs (Protect, Shell and Bar- spells), and the occasional Cure V after something nasty happens.

and such we learn the "real main healer" of ffxi endgame is pld not whm

[Vodevil]

For hardcore HNM WHM, definately Cure Cast and Barspell. Someone will always cure over your Regen making it worthless.

[Nirokun!]

barspell/regen

barspell for whenever you're in the PT to use it

regen because curecast is fine if you're the only one with cures around... but since everyone (who should be paying attention) there are a lot of cures coming in from different places, overwriting someone is overwriting someone. paladins should be keeping their HP at max, with you supporting their mp consumption with small cures where HP dips and PLDs are interrupted and are going to suffer another attack before being able to cure. regen merits have a lot more use than cure cast, and lend themselves to a lower hate healing strategy (not that you get to use them when outside alliance, but those with cure cast dont get to interrupt cures [or so i hear] either, so its really a personal choice.)

<Beecher> Nirokun doesnt cure
<Beecher> he regens
<Nirokun> (*'-')

i cure, but on HNM fights, you'll rarely see anything from me over a Cure2 (assuming something retarded doesnt happen, or i'll use V)

[Alastaire]

I'm not a WHM, but a tank, and I voted Barspell / Cure Casting time. Barspell doesn't seem to be debated here at all, so I'll leave that alone. As for Cure Casting time VS Regen, it basically comes down to what others have already said. There's no reason not to keep the tank at 100% at all times, you're never taking consistent damage like you might've 2 years ago, tanking as a PLD/WAR. As such, I don't see Regen being useful really, outside of merits, but really, I don't see the point in getting merits just for merit parties, over something that could potentially make a difference at an event.

[Gregorio]

Barspell/Cure cast time for me. Even for exp parties.

I can't count the number of times (before my Cure cast merits) in a fight that's gettin rough the tank/whoever dies just ONE SPLIT SECOND before my cure goes off.

[Obev]

Barspell/Cure.

A year ago I'd have argued that Regen merits were worth it, but this was when all the tanks I was dealing with subbed warrior. The thinking was that if you're gaining 25+ HP back per tick, then it's like you're taking less damage. Of course, now that paladins sub ninja, ninjas sub dark knight, and everyone's capping recasts with haste gear, there seems little point in Regen when you'll only get hit by the occasional TP move or spell. When tanks do get hit by something nasty, firstly I'd like to see it reduced in potency by my barspells, and secondly I'd like to get them cured as fast as possible.

I'm sure there's arguments for regen, but I don't see myself ever using it.

[Therin]

Glad to see most people agree with me. Now just gotta convince my WHMs to switch their merits. >8(

[Ryko]

Were they trying to quant an argument and saying that "Barspell merits arent worth it because it pigeonholes you into to the tank PT"? I didn't even know how to respond to that one.

[Therin]

Were they trying to quant an argument and saying that "Barspell merits arent worth it because it pigeonholes you into to the tank PT"? I didn't even know how to respond to that one.

Sort of, I think "you're only concerned with the tank party, Regen merits helps everyone" was mentioned. It was more like, "You already resist 90% of Tiamat's hits for 14 damage, why do you need another 10 resist?" Missing the 10 MDB point entirely, not realizing that it's like free D. Ring when a wyrm is airborne. Well, not quite that potent, but you know what I mean.

[Nagamaki]

Maxing barspell is the no brainer part, Cure cast/Regen is a matter of personal preference. Not every tank is a PLD/NIN (have fun curing yourself as NIN/DRK, MNK/NIN, WAR/NIN...) and not every attack is blinkable, so in certain fights damage will most certainly occur regularly even with utsusemi tanking. If you just don't take damage at all then why is there a WHM there instead of an extra support of a different kind or an extra DD?

Some WHMs will prefer help on pinch cures, others will prefer improving the effectiveness of regen for mp efficiency/the hp buffer it provides. It is entirely an issue of playstyle. Its not like having regen merits means you can't pinch cure, or having cast time merits means you can't keep people regen-ed.

[Ryko]

Yeah tens was like "You do realize it adds MDB which helps regardless of whether you resist or not, right?"

"Oh I thought it was just + resist"

Lethe: "The merit description says and for a reason y'know"

[defiant]

Cure Speed and Barspells.

Most HNM have nasty aoe magic.