STR Rings V. Acc Rings (Yes I've searched already)

[Ethan]

I've seen a ton of posts saying acc rings > str rings for TPing. Even more posts about lolSTR rings (especially on relic holders). I was wondering if there was someone (or a link if it already exists) that could walk me through the entire logical process for acc > str rings for TP (I realize that STR has a much larger role in most WSs).

Our LS got into a discussion because I was cringing in my PT over a full-time STR only DD who was doing nothing but slowing us down. They didn't buy my logic that hitting more often for less (and WS more often) is better than hitting less often for only slightly more since STR while TPing does very little. I've looked at the fStr information, but I still can't wrap my head around all of it. Is there a clear (possibly written for very slow people) guide that articulates why acc > str for TPing?

I even had one person say that they keep on STR rings because it makes their BLU spells stronger, and I thought after reading most of that 80 page BLU thread that it is mainly based on ACC and BLU magic skill (with a few having odd modifiers like DEF, and some having INT MND mods).

Any help?

[Tordall]

I think the general idea is that melee DD has 2 distinct phases. The first is TP building. The point of the TP build phase is to get TP as fast as possible. The second phase is the WS build, when the point is to get the most damage out of your weaponskill.

For the TP build phase, you put haste/double attack/kick attack gear in every slot you can get it. If Store:TP is avalable to cut a melee round off your TP building, put that on. Everywhere else put +acc. That setup gets you TP fastest.

For example my TP build for ninja is:

Pick 2 good katanas
Fire Bomblet (+6 acc)
W. Turban (+5 haste)
PCC (+10 acc)
Suppa (dual wield)
Brutal (store TP, double attack)
Ninja Chainmail+1 (dual wield, 5 dex)
Dusk Gloves+1/Koga Tekko (4% haste)
Rajas (5 dex, store TP)
Sniper's (5 acc)
Aileron Mantle (6 acc)
Swift Belt (3 acc 4 haste)
Byakko's Hiadate (15 dex 5 haste)
Fumas (3 haste)

[aurik]

(I realize that STR has a much larger role in most WSs).

Not true, acc still trumps STR on weaponskills, except where you're sneak-attacking (or trick-attacking with assassin trait) a one-hit WS.

[Judai]

BLUs should use STR Rings and eat Sushi in EXP. STR is a heavy Modifier for most spells and Sushi+A Weapon will be more then enough Acc to hit your Spells. BLU is not your typical Melee.

Otherwise, just read any thread if you want to hear people's opinions on why Acc> Str Rings. It's not just hitting one or two times more for a little less. It's hitting like 10% more the someone else which adds up to a hell of a lot more.

[Yutuyu]

I think what you use should depend entirely on what you're fighting, your job, and the rest of your setup. There are very few items which are perfect regardless the type of setup you're using, what you're doing, and who's in your party.

[Loren]

I think you answered your own question: the main goal of a TP outfit is to reach 100 TP in the shortest amount of time. It's plain to see that STR does not help this in any way. Accuracy, Haste, Double/Triple Attack, Store TP yes. STR and Attack no.

Dealing good damage during the TP phase is important too, but it's a secondary concern. The problem is that most methods for increasing DoT through STR or Attack bear an opportunity cost to Acc/Haste/etc. that will reduce weaponskill frequency and result in less total damage.

These decisions vary with the choices each slot has to offer, e.g. technically the DEX+3 on Commander Cape will help reach 100 TP by increasing Acc ever so slightly but most do not consider it worth losing 3 STR and 15 Attack on Forager's. In the case of rings, I think most would agree that any dmg gained from Flames is undercut by the lower weaponskill frequency of passing up 10 Acc. Example: if Snipers -> Flames takes you from 80% hit rate -> 75% hit rate, you are sacrificing 6.2% of your hits (regular swings and consequently WS frequency), and banking on the assumption that the 2-3 base DMG gain will make up for it.

[Nagamaki]

Acc rings are nice and all, but the best possible acc ring combo (Mars and a +7) means +15 acc, that's 7.5% in effective acc versus rings with no acc whatsoever. Not 10%. Technically there's Lightning Ring on Lightningsday, but I don't think that's what people are talking about here.

Accuracy is great, but its not magical, the best gear in a specific situation will vary based on a whole range of variables. Stats are stats, what matters is the combined end result and group performance, not which combination of elements lead to the result.

Maybe one day people will stop asking these type of questions and just pick their gear based on their own tests and experience... not.

[Septimus]

Maybe one day people will stop asking these type of questions and just pick their gear based on their own tests and experience... not.

Blasphemy! Now excuse me as I follow this group of lemmings off of a cliff.

[Loren]

what matters is the combined end result and group performance, not which combination of elements lead to the result

This is very true. However, each slot offers different choices and some are simply more efficient than others in 99% percent of cases. Every melee DD must seek accuracy, damage, and speed bonuses in some form or another. Items like Sniper's Ring and Peacock Charm are valued because they offer a nice amount of Acc and their alternatives are underwhelming. If there were rings or necklaces with STR+10 or Haste+3% or Attack+15 then the discussion would be more complicated, but there aren't. Likewise, if there were capes with serious Haste or Accuracy, then the Amemet+1/Foragers choice wouldn't be so clearcut, but there aren't.

If any DD tells me they have capped hit rate with no rings, I would be immediately suspicious that they are overdoing Acc in other slots that have much more debatable alternatives for Attack or Haste. Equipping 10 Acc in ring form will displace 10 STR (5 Attack + 2-3 weapon DMG), but if you don't get it there then you'll have to get it from:
Head -- displaces 5% Haste
Waist -- displaces 4-6% Haste
Food -- displaces ~18 Attack (comparing ~Acc+50 sushi to ~Atk+90 steak)
Song -- displaces ~20 Attack or ~4% Haste (comparing ~Acc+30 madrigal to ~Atk+60 minuet or ~Haste+12% march)

Your total output can be approximated by the product of: (Damage x Accuracy x Speed). As with any multiplication, you gain the most by increasing the smallest factor. If you are bumping against the hit rate cap such that the standard and obvious items no longer help you (Sniper's) then chances are your setup is lopsided. Drop Acc from the more debatable slots (e.g. Head, Waist, food, etc.) before you mess with the slots where Acc is a more efficient fit compared to the alternatives.

[Gafgarionn]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/matrix_transform.png

Standard matrix for a clockwise rotation by 90 degrees? Holy shit, 568 (lin. alg.) is actually useful.

[ringthree]

(I realize that STR has a much larger role in most WSs).

Not true, acc still trumps STR on weaponskills, except where you're sneak-attacking (or trick-attacking with assassin trait) a one-hit WS.

There are some cases (like NIN's with a lot of haste gear) where they will actually have more accuracy one WS than they will on TP build. In this case I think STR can be justified.

You are thinking too much like a MNK.

[aurik]

(I realize that STR has a much larger role in most WSs).

Not true, acc still trumps STR on weaponskills, except where you're sneak-attacking (or trick-attacking with assassin trait) a one-hit WS.

There are some cases (like NIN's with a lot of haste gear) where they will actually have more accuracy one WS than they will on TP build. In this case I think STR can be justified.

You are thinking too much like a MNK.

On the contrary, you are thinking too much like a moron. I guess you just don't have any concept of how little of a difference a few points of strength makes.

[Amastacia]

(I realize that STR has a much larger role in most WSs).

Not true, acc still trumps STR on weaponskills, except where you're sneak-attacking (or trick-attacking with assassin trait) a one-hit WS.

There are some cases (like NIN's with a lot of haste gear) where they will actually have more accuracy one WS than they will on TP build. In this case I think STR can be justified.

You are thinking too much like a MNK.

If a NIN is in a situation to have overcapped Acc during WS and significantly undercapped Acc during TP, I'd love to know when that is.

Most times that Acc would go past cap for WS are times you should be eating meat instead of sushi anyway.

If I'm stuck choosing between ditching Haub+1 for AF(+1) to avoid overcapping Acc for TP, or ditching Sole(+1) for a Hedge Pie or Coeurl Subs, it's a pretty easy choice. Any time my Acc is high enough for AF body, my Acc is high enough for top-tier meat.

[shukuffxi]

I guess here is as good a place to ask: As a PLD with capped Sword Skill merits + Suppa, on decently strong XP mobs (read: Thickets, not mire), how should I focus my WS gear? Even without Sushi, I have a perfectly acceptable hit rate on most things. My DoT is not too shabby due to Justice/Joyeuse and a decent TP build, I TP as fast as any other decent melee at least, but my WS well, they just plain suck, when i'm not DA'ing or crit'ing. Since Vorpal Blade is 4 hits with chance of crit, is it more important to rely on Accuracy since it's a multi hit WS, or try to sneak in more Attack (or over STR as well?) i.e: That +10 Attack belt instead of a Warwolf, Attack hands instead of Acc or STR hands? Note: Only have one piece of Heca.

I've fooled around with adding a bit more / less of Acc/STR/Attack but nothing seems to give a reliable clear cut advantage that I can see.

[ringthree]

(I realize that STR has a much larger role in most WSs).

Not true, acc still trumps STR on weaponskills, except where you're sneak-attacking (or trick-attacking with assassin trait) a one-hit WS.

There are some cases (like NIN's with a lot of haste gear) where they will actually have more accuracy one WS than they will on TP build. In this case I think STR can be justified.

You are thinking too much like a MNK.

On the contrary, you are thinking too much like a moron. I guess you just don't have any concept of how little of a difference a few points of strength makes.

No reason to be rude. If you have capped accuracy with less accuracy gear on TP, why would you then put more accuracy on for a WS? I am sorry if I was unclear on this.

For example, if you use Turban and a Snipers for TP build and have capped accuracy, then use Shura Kabuto for your WS, there is no reason to leave on the Snipers, you can substitute in a STR ring with no loss of accuracy which is already capped.

[aurik]

There are some cases (like NIN's with a lot of haste gear) where they will actually have more accuracy one WS than they will on TP build. In this case I think STR can be justified.

You are thinking too much like a MNK.

On the contrary, you are thinking too much like a moron. I guess you just don't have any concept of how little of a difference a few points of strength makes.

No reason to be rude. If you have capped accuracy with less accuracy gear on TP, why would you then put more accuracy on for a WS? I am sorry if I was unclear on this.

For example, if you use Turban and a Snipers for TP build and have capped accuracy, then use Shura Kabuto for your WS, there is no reason to leave on the Snipers, you can substitute in a STR ring with no loss of accuracy which is already capped.

If you don't want me to be rude, you should try to follow the same.

As Amas said, if you have capped accuracy, you should stop eating sushi, and retain the accuracy focus on your gear.

[ringthree]

There are some cases (like NIN's with a lot of haste gear) where they will actually have more accuracy one WS than they will on TP build. In this case I think STR can be justified.

You are thinking too much like a MNK.

On the contrary, you are thinking too much like a moron. I guess you just don't have any concept of how little of a difference a few points of strength makes.

No reason to be rude. If you have capped accuracy with less accuracy gear on TP, why would you then put more accuracy on for a WS? I am sorry if I was unclear on this.

For example, if you use Turban and a Snipers for TP build and have capped accuracy, then use Shura Kabuto for your WS, there is no reason to leave on the Snipers, you can substitute in a STR ring with no loss of accuracy which is already capped.

If you don't want me to be rude, you should try to follow the same.

As Amas said, if you have capped accuracy, you should stop eating sushi, and retain the accuracy focus on your gear.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude, just making a joke because you are a quality MNK, just a little MNK-centric. Seems it went badly, I did not mean to offend.

Food wasn't my focus here, that wasn't my point. My point was to point out that if accuracy was not a concern then more accuracy doesn't matter.

[Ryko]

In the case you're a sushi user there are only a few monsters that you actually EXP on where you will notice a loss in TP returned from connecting hits on a WS by shifting over to a STR heavy setup for WS. In that case the loss of acc by min-maxing the remaining aspects and throwing in STR can and usually is negligible so I don't exactly see the problem in doing so. People can say "Well use meat etc etc etc" but some people arent of the position to have 2 bards at their beck and call to do so (with noticeably stronger returns) and the compromise of using sushi with a minuet and march or what not is not exactly a crime.

[vegetaa]

Food wasn't my focus here, that wasn't my point. My point was to point out that if accuracy was not a concern then more accuracy doesn't matter.

Thing is, food is a very important parameter in the choice of your gear. Accuracy will be a concern most of the time, even if you are under the impression it's not, simply because 90% accuracy is not 95% accuracy, and missing a swing means the mob you're fighting will live longer (~ the length of a swing), and that's what we're trying to avoid.

Many people use Accuracy gear for TPing, for the simple fact they will reach 100TP faster (since they miss less) and WS to deal a big damage peak. That's the obvious part. What's less obvious is the effect of STR on regular attacks. It's tiny. It's tiny for H2H, but it's also tiny for all weapons. Using a STR setup during the TP phase means you agree to reach 100TP slower than you could, with the advantage of hitting for 3-4-5% more damage when you hit. But a miss with 150STR will still deal no damage, so all in all your DoT most likely won't be higher with a STR setup.

Back to the topic of food, you have to see it like a tool to improve your DoT. Not like a tool to allow you to hit the mobs. Meaning if you must rely on sushi to have an acceptable accuracy, you're doing it wrong (either on the choice of your gear, or on the choice of your mobs). There are of course exceptions (Mamools come to mind), but most of the time, it's better to adjust your gear for an optimal accuracy, then stack attack/STR in the remaining slots, and use an attack food.

[Nagamaki]

All of the time, its better to setup for optimal group performance.

I find it hilarious that if a Flame Ring increases your damage by say, 2-3%, it is clearly useless and totally worth insulting people over. But if a Sniper's Ring +1 increases your accuracy by 4-5% (relative increase, if your acc was 70%, +3.5% acc is a relative 5% boost) it is clearly a world shattering difference, and will make you a damage god. Of course an accuracy ring will make a greater difference than a Flame Ring when using attack food and accuracy is far from cap, because it is improving the weakest point in the damage calculation. That doesn't mean the STR actually does nothing even then, unless you're fighting a mob type with very low VIT, it just does slightly less.

In reality, sometimes sushi is just more practical, for example with a mixed party where some people are using lower rank/unmeritted weapons who would still struggle with accuracy with as much as they can equip on, or against a selection of mobs that includes a significant number of THF mobs. As a MNK, accuracy even plays an additionnal role because an accuracy check is required for potential counters to activate, so greater accuracy for a MNK results in less damage taken and more damage caused when tanking without shadows/between shadows. A good party with good mob availability at colibris can get 20-25k avg 30k/hour xp peaks with attack food or with accuracy food. Is it really that important if they're eating fish or red meat?

In most situations, you don't need the full amount of accuracy sushi gives, making it somewhat wasteful. It doesn't mean its always useless, and using attack food doesn't make you a better person, it just increases your attack. What makes sense is being ready to adjust and make the best of it either way.