PLD/NIN or PLD/WAR Situations

[Arnwulf]

Ok, I've done a decent amount of searching and I really can't find the info I'm looking for here.

I'm finally caught up to the times and now have /nin available for my PLD. I don't do much endgame stuff, mainly Limbus and lolEinherjar, I do Assault too but I wouldn't call that "endgame" really. Anyway, my question is, how do you know what situations to bring what sub to? Is it pretty much /nin all the time? Or, as people say, "shit is situational", which brings me to my main question, what situations are best for what sub?

Before you ask, I've got pretty decent gear, no Homam, but I do have Dusk Gloves for the haste. Most of the other PLD/NIN gear I have.

[Cephius]

As a rule of thumb, I'd say short fights = war, longer fights = nin as far as subs go.

HNMs are always nin sub, really can't think of any exception except KB since it's a kited fight. No one brings PLD to Kirin anymore since almost everyone meleeburns it, but I'd probably bring Nin sub there too just to blink the deadly holds and tail swing spam.

Dynamis (and I guess Einherjar applies too) I bring PLD/WAR because the fights are so short and a PLD's job there is mostly to voke/flash slept adds and for general hate control. Limbus I usually just bring NIN sub and DD setup since almost all of them are meleeburned anyway.

[Talint]

As a rule of thumb, I'd say short fights = war, longer fights = nin as far as subs go.

HNMs are always nin sub, really can't think of any exception except KB since it's a kited fight. No one brings PLD to Kirin anymore since almost everyone meleeburns it, but I'd probably bring Nin sub there too just to blink the deadly holds and tail swing spam.

Dynamis (and I guess Einherjar applies too) I bring PLD/WAR because the fights are so short and a PLD's job there is mostly to voke/flash slept adds and for general hate control. Limbus I usually just bring NIN sub and DD setup since almost all of them are meleeburned anyway.

Honestly, this is the right answer. Any fight that's going to last more than several minutes warrants /NIN. Otherwise, /WAR is the way to go.

Dynamis, Limbus (non-omega/ultima), Salvage, & sky/sea farming = /WAR
Sky and sea gods, HNMs, omega/ultima = /NIN

Additionally, does anybody kite things anymore? If you're kiting stuff, then I'd recommend /WAR as well.

[Shuemue]

Additionally, does anybody kite things anymore? If you're kiting stuff, then I'd recommend /WAR as well.

KB and his KS99 & Limbus cousins, some shells don't have the right numbers/jobs/gear to TP burn Kirin either. Vrtra too for many strats.

[Falaras]

As a rule of thumb, I'd say short fights = war, longer fights = nin as far as subs go.

HNMs are always nin sub, really can't think of any exception except KB since it's a kited fight. No one brings PLD to Kirin anymore since almost everyone meleeburns it, but I'd probably bring Nin sub there too just to blink the deadly holds and tail swing spam.

Dynamis (and I guess Einherjar applies too) I bring PLD/WAR because the fights are so short and a PLD's job there is mostly to voke/flash slept adds and for general hate control. Limbus I usually just bring NIN sub and DD setup since almost all of them are meleeburned anyway.

Honestly, this is the right answer. Any fight that's going to last more than several minutes warrants /NIN. Otherwise, /WAR is the way to go.

Dynamis, Limbus (non-omega/ultima), Salvage, & sky/sea farming = /WAR
Sky and sea gods, HNMs, omega/ultima = /NIN

Additionally, does anybody kite things anymore? If you're kiting stuff, then I'd recommend /WAR as well.

While I understand in salvage you need to take hate for the little mobs like Dyamis would you really want to try and tank a Chariot /war?

[Arnwulf]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm still trying to get a feel for how to play PLD/NIN just right (been 75 PLD/WAR for a loooong time), so I'm taking in as much advice as I can and seeing what works for me.

[Garret]

There's really no reason you can't do an HNM like Fafnir as /War. Yes it is probably more efficient to use /Nin, but he's not that hard of a fight regardless and if you'd rather try to claim with Provoke then Fafnir you aren't going to massively hurt your alliance by bloodtanking him. If you are doing him shorthanded then yeah you should be /Nin.

Just because many mobs can be more efficiently tanked as /Nin doesn't mean it's not possible to also do them /War without any trouble.

[Woozie]

Just because a mob *can* be tanked as /war doesn't mean it makes sense to. If /nin is more efficient on a mob, it makes little sense to tank as /war just because it's possible. It's also possible to kill Fafnir while having all your DDs sub SMN, but doesn't mean it makes sense to do it when other subs are more efficient.

[Cephius]

Just because a mob *can* be tanked as /war doesn't mean it makes sense to. If /nin is more efficient on a mob, it makes little sense to tank as /war just because it's possible. It's also possible to kill Fafnir while having all your DDs sub SMN, but doesn't mean it makes sense to do it when other subs are more efficient.

Exactly. Melees and BLMs have gotten better since bloodtanking was the standard, and as a result Paladins have had to change their ways to keep up and hold hate effectively. A PLD/WAR doesn't really have much of a chance to hold hate off a fully merited black mage, but the hate retained from blink tanking instead of blood tanking makes it possible.

[Minions]

Just because a mob *can* be tanked as /war doesn't mean it makes sense to. If /nin is more efficient on a mob, it makes little sense to tank as /war just because it's possible. It's also possible to kill Fafnir while having all your DDs sub SMN, but doesn't mean it makes sense to do it when other subs are more efficient.

Exactly. Melees and BLMs have gotten better since bloodtanking was the standard, and as a result Paladins have had to change their ways to keep up and hold hate effectively. A PLD/WAR doesn't really have much of a chance to hold hate off a fully merited black mage, but the hate retained from blink tanking instead of blood tanking makes it possible.

I still tank Faf /war Ceph : ) of course I want to play with my shield, and we haven't gotten a chance to camp faf because its always at 5am v_v;

[Lexa]

Also consider the fact that sometimes, /war is just plain more fun. I don't deny the power of /nin, but sometimes /war is just too much fun to pass up. My ls still kites Kirin, since TP burning would involve making half our ls sit out (the half without a heavy melee job or BRD at 75), and I'd rather go /war to that. Wyrms, I /nin and KS99 I /nin. For the lesser sky Gods, why bother with /nin, when you can rape them in a minute flat, regardless of what your tanks are subbing? Might as well take the hits head on and have some fun.

For Limbus I go /war, but for Protos I go /nin.

For Salvage I /war, but it took me a while to find someone who'd even let a PLD in, so I haven't really had any experience with the tougher NMs in there etc.

For Assault, I always /nin in DD setup, but that's mainly because I Assault static with a WAR and a MNK, and since the mobs are all DC-VT (in the Assaults that do involve fighting, that is), I don't really even bother to try. Might as well just let the BB MNK tank, and help deal some damage.

[Judai]

Also consider the fact that sometimes, /war is just plain more fun. I don't deny the power of /nin, but sometimes /war is just too much fun to pass up. My ls still kites Kirin, since TP burning would involve making half our ls sit out (the half without a heavy melee job or BRD at 75), and I'd rather go /war to that. Wyrms, I /nin and KS99 I /nin. For the lesser sky Gods, why bother with /nin, when you can rape them in a minute flat, regardless of what your tanks are subbing? Might as well take the hits head on and have some fun.

For Limbus I go /war, but for Protos I go /nin.

For Salvage I /war, but it took me a while to find someone who'd even let a PLD in, so I haven't really had any experience with the tougher NMs in there etc.

For Assault, I always /nin in DD setup, but that's mainly because I Assault static with a WAR and a MNK, and since the mobs are all DC-VT (in the Assaults that do involve fighting, that is), I don't really even bother to try. Might as well just let the BB MNK tank, and help deal some damage.

Personally I think /nin is more fun, lol. They all said the basics, if the fight is going to be a long fight, /nin. If the mob has any moves that will basically one shot you /war, then /nin. Can't really help you with salvage or Assault cause I have 5 other jobs to use in those situations, though the couple times I did Salvage as PLD I found /nin to be better for Chariots.

[Banzai_Kitty]

I'm not a pld myself, but I'm charged with formulating strategies for Dynamis/Limbus. Of particular concern is our up coming Proto-Omega fight. We've only done the fight once and that was many, many months ago, before I was "in charge", so the only memories are that it was disasterrific and that the Pld/nin couldn't hold hate at all.

So the question is, how exactly does a pld/nin hold hate? Flash and healing I can see, but any other noteworthy abilities are on a 5min timer.

Slightly off-topic, what of Pld/Blu?

[Judai]

If your PLD/NIN couldn't hold hate, they just sucked. It's beyond easy. Haste, Marchs, Refresh and tell them to just spam Flash. Hit their /jas when they are up, Shield Bash, Sentinel, Rampart and cure people when they have time. It helps some to have some people SATA on them and such but they shouldn't even need that. Flash on a 22s timer is crazy hate, coupled with avoiding damage with utsu.

The main problem I see with alot of PLD/NINs who suck is they just don't spam flash. They just kinda sit there, trying to cure someone once in awhile.

Omega does have a bunch of Hate Reset moves, so maybe that was it too but it's seriously so easy to keep hate. Try stunning the Hate Resets, Pile Pitch and Collossal Blow. Hopefully, you had 2-3 tanks as well. Personally I like 3 tanks just incase but 2 is enough if they are both good.

[Ferien]

I'm not a pld myself, but I'm charged with formulating strategies for Dynamis/Limbus. Of particular concern is our up coming Proto-Omega fight. We've only done the fight once and that was many, many months ago, before I was "in charge", so the only memories are that it was disasterrific and that the Pld/nin couldn't hold hate at all.

So the question is, how exactly does a pld/nin hold hate? Flash and healing I can see, but any other noteworthy abilities are on a 5min timer.

Slightly off-topic, what of Pld/Blu?

You had a shitty PLD.

[Cephius]

Just because a mob *can* be tanked as /war doesn't mean it makes sense to. If /nin is more efficient on a mob, it makes little sense to tank as /war just because it's possible. It's also possible to kill Fafnir while having all your DDs sub SMN, but doesn't mean it makes sense to do it when other subs are more efficient.

Exactly. Melees and BLMs have gotten better since bloodtanking was the standard, and as a result Paladins have had to change their ways to keep up and hold hate effectively. A PLD/WAR doesn't really have much of a chance to hold hate off a fully merited black mage, but the hate retained from blink tanking instead of blood tanking makes it possible.

I still tank Faf /war Ceph : ) of course I want to play with my shield, and we haven't gotten a chance to camp faf because its always at 5am v_v;

I don't think the OP had Aegis Paladins in mind when he asked the question

But the fact remains, can you tank stuff as /WAR? Sure. Is /NIN still more efficient for almost any long winded fight? Probably!

[Grey Jorildyn]

there are other creative ways for a pld/nin to hold hate outside the usual JA rotation and flash spam. i've never found this to be enough hate at the speed i like to have my linkshell kill things, like tiamat. speed is not always very efficient at Khimaira, but if we're over-manned for something like that, we like to zerg it whenever possible to make the tanking situation fun (ES+Elegy really took the fun out of it :/ ). also, we generally find ourselves claiming them in early afternoon/evening so we want to get the most windows out of them next time around, hence the zerg.

i've actually kited temperance, faith, fortitude, and prudence as pld/nin. it's a real trip and loads of fun. i agree with whoever said it was more fun. bloodtanking is just plain boring and always a struggle and a headache when you are dealing with full-merited players, which make up the majority of a strong end game shell as is.

/war really doesn't make much sense in most end-game scenarios, that i agree with, but you will find your shells that rely on it still for small things like fafnir, even aspid in some cases i've seen, although not as recently as the former. even in short fights, /nin can generate a lot of hate incredibly fast if you know how to do it..

edit: typo

[Shuemue]

there are other creative ways for a pld/nin to hold hate outside the usual JA rotation and flash spam.

Care to elaborate on that? I'm on 44 PLD atm but eventually I might need to know >_>

[Grey Jorildyn]

I knew I shouldn't have used that elipse. I would but people like to flame my brand of generating hate. it's not really a big secret anymore though. see page 2

[Kaylia]

Dynamis, Limbus (non-omega/ultima), Salvage, & sky/sea farming = /WAR

Just /nin all the times and use DD gears if you are farming. If you can't hold hate on /nin, you wont hold it on /war either...dont worry about your mnk and war, I'm sure they can handle hate.

The only situation where I would ever /war is for lolkite, and JoL (if they dont have /drk or /rdm ). Maybe dynamis is you are still using the long lost /assist command.