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  1. #1
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Now, I have heard that the general consensus for Blade: Jin is to use Byakko's Haidate over Shura Haidate, but I have been thinking about it, and I am actually wondering about the potency of each one. Now, I am not the best mathematician so if I get something wrong please inform me and will add it in.

    Just for reference Blade:Jin's modifiers: Three hit WS, with an additional hit from the off-hand katana. 1.00 damage modifier for all TP levels but increasing chance of Critical Hit with increased TP, and a 30% secondary modifier of both STR and DEX.

    A quick look at each and secondary benefits;
    Shura Haidate:
    * HP -35
    * Strength +5
    * Accuracy +7
    + Improvement to fSTR?

    Byakko's Haidate:
    * Dexterity +15
    * Resist vs. Lightning +50
    * Haste +5%
    + Accuracy +7.5
    + Improvement to Critical Hit?

    So, just a quick look would favor Byakko's Haidate, it has slightly more accuracy and a higher secondary modifier. But what about the improvement to fSTR from Shura? Am I even thinking of that the right way? Wouldn't the additional STR improve both the fSTR and the secondary modifier on Blade: Jin? Does the improvement to Critical Hit from more DEX on Byakko's Haidate matter if you don't reach the next "tier" for Critical Hit rate improvement?

    Most discussions on this subject have just gleaned over things and favored Byakko's Haidate because of the really high secondary modifier and the essentially equal accuracy. But that doesn't really delve that far into the issue, and my knowledge of fSTR and how to best improve it for a weapon's base damage is too limited for me to understand it completely, but my rudimentary understand is that lower base damage weapons it is easier to reach the cap on fSTR.

    I assume there will be some difference for considering fSTR with the food being used but for this case lets assume that Sole Sushi is being used. Would changing over to meat make a difference? I am not sure about how the fSTR calculation works exactly.

  2. #2
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Get the OKote pants, the answer is simple.

  3. #3

    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by skurlover
    Get the OKote pants, the answer is simple.
    WAY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THERE GJ



    Personally I'd go with the Byakko's, since both have the same ACC, Byakko's has more mod, and you can get DEX+15 for the placebo crit hit+ chance that DEX gives you.

    Personally I'm not sure where fSTR would benefit more in a meat/sushi situation, usually the only times I eat Meat are in Dynamis/Limbus, Mire, and Assaults; Sushi+full haste build seems to work better for me. But Sole vs. Meat, the only difference really that'd be noticable is the ATK difference, so fSTR wouldnt be changed.

    My vote's for BYAAKOOOOOOO

  4. #4
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    I use Byakkos for the following reasons:
    1) Jin is a crit WS, therefore I think STR has far less impact, since the damage difference between crit hit and non crit hit is huge.
    2) Your DEX should determine your base crit rate for the WS (if i remember reading some discussion here correctly) what I mean is if you have a 10% base crit rate, your Jin at 100% TP = 10% crit chance..and increases at whatever rate as your TP goes up to 300.....
    3) 15 DEX is more of a mod thant he STR on shura
    4) DEX also translates to accuracy


    On a damage varies with TP WS and same comparison, I think shura might be better, but /shrug..

    Look at a damage varies with TP WS with crappy modifiers (hi asuran fists)....shura is clearly far better than haidate....I guess bad comparison 8 hit skill but /shrug

    From experience I tried both Haidate hands down

  5. #5
    Ive sucked 27 dicks, in a row.
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    I'm not a NIN myself, but I've always been told that Byakko's Haidate make a noticeable difference on Jin because a higher WS crit rate will increase your damage a lot more than 5 STR. I'm not advocating wearing Thunder Rings or anything, but when it's 15 DEX to 5 STR for a WS that actually benefits from DEX too, I'd go for the DEX every time.

  6. #6
    Puppetmaster
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Shura gives effective damage on Blade Jin +2.75 (averaged), while Haidate gives effective damage +4.5 (averaged), so even discounting critical hit chance, Byakko's will do more damage than Haidate.

  7. #7
    Like a boss yo
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Kitty pants > Shura hidate.

    Period.

  8. #8

    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    I Asuran Fists in Shura Haidate, based on more str for loltaru and only .5 acc less.

  9. #9
    Pandemonium
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    Cho'gall

    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    In almost every case I'd say STR>DEX for jin, but this is one of the rare exceptions. 15 DEX is simply too much to ignore even if it is a lolmodifier.

  10. #10
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidanoir
    I use Byakkos for the following reasons:
    1) Jin is a crit WS, therefore I think STR has far less impact, since the damage difference between crit hit and non crit hit is huge.
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidanoir
    2) Your DEX should determine your base crit rate for the WS (if i remember reading some discussion here correctly) what I mean is if you have a 10% base crit rate, your Jin at 100% TP = 10% crit chance..and increases at whatever rate as your TP goes up to 300.....
    This is kind of correct but irrelevent. I believe it has been proven that TP100=0% Crit Hit chance bonus, TP200=20% Crit Hit chance bonus, TP300=40% Crit Hit chance bonus. This is basically what you are saying but it proves nothing because you are just saying that base critical hit is your chance to critical hit on Jin. This is obvious, and doesn't deal with the fSTR question at all. This is only relevant if we can prove that the +15 DEX actually does help to break a Crit Hit tier, which would be tough to prove in WS gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidanoir
    3) 15 DEX is more of a mod thant he STR on shura
    Well yes, but STR doesn't just modify your weaponskill it also modifies your fSTR, and thus STR is factored twice in the case of Blade: Jin, (this is the reason you still stack STR on WS that don't have a STR secondary modifier). And here is where I dive in way over my head:
    ~For Weapon Skills: Base Damage = floor( (D + (aD) + fSTR(2) + WSC) x fTP)
    ~fSTR is a comparison of STR vs. mob VIT, so there is that check of STR (the higher the better) and there is the secondary modifier for STR30%, for Dex there is only the secondary modifier for DEX30%.
    Now, also from VZX: "For melee attack, fSTR is calculated by fSTR2/2. So, melee attack needs roughly 4~6 STR to increase fSTR value by 1"
    This means that Shura Haidate would likely be able to increase the fSTR value, while Byakko's Haidate would not. Again this would not be testable on bunnies in Ronfaure because you already have capped fSTR, but would not be true compared to an XP mob.
    There is a reason that they are called secondary modifiers, because they are figured after fSTR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidanoir
    4) DEX also translates to accuracy
    So? Shura has 7 Accuracy, making the difference between the two .5 Accuracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidanoir
    On a damage varies with TP WS and same comparison, I think shura might be better, but /shrug..

    Look at a damage varies with TP WS with crappy modifiers (hi asuran fists)....shura is clearly far better than haidate....I guess bad comparison 8 hit skill but /shrug

    From experience I tried both Haidate hands down
    Just worrying about Blade: Jin here, so this isn't really relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerion
    Shura gives effective damage on Blade Jin +2.75 (averaged), while Haidate gives effective damage +4.5 (averaged), so even discounting critical hit chance, Byakko's will do more damage than Haidate.
    Huh? Where does this come from? Is this just what you figured from secondary modifiers? Because that just begs the question of fSTR vs. Secondary modifiers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyverarmor
    Kitty pants > Shura hidate.

    Period.
    Thanks for the useless input, this is exactly the kind of post I was trying to avoid getting, I think my original post and the information included deemed more of a discussion that a vacuous "greater than" comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephius
    In almost every case I'd say STR>DEX for jin, but this is one of the rare exceptions. 15 DEX is simply too much to ignore even if it is a lolmodifier.
    I understand what you are saying, and that is generally my belief too, but where is the proof? If Shura improves fSTR, is that better than the functional difference of 10points in a 30% Secondary modifier?

    I guess after reading this I will refocus my question to this: 1. Is fSTR improvement better than a 10 point improvement to a 30% secondary modifier? 2. How easy is it to cap fSTR on Katanas, specifically a base damage of 38 (Senjuinrikio, which would have a higher fSTR cap than Unji so more STR would be needed to reach the fSTR cap, if I am understanding any of this correctly)?

    And for Skur:
    http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/d...espantsfun.PNG

  11. #11
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carnusty
    Quote Originally Posted by skurlover
    Get the OKote pants, the answer is simple.
    WAY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THERE GJ



    Personally I'd go with the Byakko's, since both have the same ACC, Byakko's has more mod, and you can get DEX+15 for the placebo crit hit+ chance that DEX gives you.

    Personally I'm not sure where fSTR would benefit more in a meat/sushi situation, usually the only times I eat Meat are in Dynamis/Limbus, Mire, and Assaults; Sushi+full haste build seems to work better for me. But Sole vs. Meat, the only difference really that'd be noticable is the ATK difference, so fSTR wouldnt be changed.

    My vote's for BYAAKOOOOOOO
    Inside joke for Ring. Check out his never publicized blog sometime.

    EDIT: HOLY SHIT, that is made of win.

  12. #12
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by skurlover
    Quote Originally Posted by Carnusty
    Quote Originally Posted by skurlover
    Get the OKote pants, the answer is simple.
    WAY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THERE GJ



    Personally I'd go with the Byakko's, since both have the same ACC, Byakko's has more mod, and you can get DEX+15 for the placebo crit hit+ chance that DEX gives you.

    Personally I'm not sure where fSTR would benefit more in a meat/sushi situation, usually the only times I eat Meat are in Dynamis/Limbus, Mire, and Assaults; Sushi+full haste build seems to work better for me. But Sole vs. Meat, the only difference really that'd be noticable is the ATK difference, so fSTR wouldnt be changed.

    My vote's for BYAAKOOOOOOO
    Inside joke for Ring. Check out his never publicized blog sometime.

    EDIT: HOLY SHIT, that is made of win.
    Oh, it will be blogged tomorrow! LOL

  13. #13
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    More pictures you lazy fuck.

  14. #14
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    15 DEX = WSC +3.735 for jin (read : 26.5% of the time WSC = 3. 73.5% of the time WSC=4)
    5 STR = fSTR+0.833~1.25 (read: 16.6% of the time it adds nothing, 83.3% of the time it adds 1 WSC
    to 25% of the time it adds 2 fSTR, 75% of the time it adds 1 WSC)

    I think the choice is clear there

  15. #15
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by skurlover
    More pictures you lazy fuck.
    Hey! Today was better, lots and lots of pics!

  16. #16

    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    I understand what you are saying, and that is generally my belief too, but where is the proof? If Shura improves fSTR, is that better than the functional difference of 10points in a 30% Secondary modifier?
    How about testing it yourself, if you want proof? Calculate the equations etc etc.

  17. #17
    Pandemonium
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    In my opinion you can forget the accuracy part of it, since most ninjas including myself use sushi (and the acc values on both pieces are essentially the same anyway) unless you're on birds or south thickets; it basically boils down to 5 STR vs 15 DEX. In a straight comparison yes, STR works better. But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all) and contributes to its modifier I always considered Byakko Haidate the clear choice. If you feel the need to run the numbers and prove it that's fine, but I don't think anyone else feels the need to.

  18. #18
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by VZX
    15 DEX = WSC +3.735 for jin (read : 26.5% of the time WSC = 3. 73.5% of the time WSC=4)
    5 STR = fSTR+0.833~1.25 (read: 16.6% of the time it adds nothing, 83.3% of the time it adds 1 WSC
    to 25% of the time it adds 2 fSTR, 75% of the time it adds 1 WSC)

    I think the choice is clear there
    For you maybe, LOL, can you put that into laymen's terms?

    If I may, I am going to try to work myself through the math, any correction would be great.

    I think you are saying that Byakko's Haidate will add 3 base damage to the weapon in question 26.5% of the time and 4 base damage to the weapon in question 73.5% of the time, right?

    The Shura calculation slightly confuses me, because I can not tell what you are including. Maybe it is just the grammar in the way you typed it, but I think something is missing.

    Another question I have from reading your equations is how much is a point of WSC worth compared to a point of fSTR? From reading your equations, am I right to assume that they are roughly equivalent?

    My final question is as follows: Does base damage of the weapons effect any of this? Since Senj is WR of 4 and Unji is WR of 3, does that mean it is easier to cap fSTR on Unji, or since WSC and fSTR are independent it does mean that it does not matter?

    Thanks for all the help.

  19. #19
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    Quote Originally Posted by VZX
    15 DEX = WSC +3.735 for jin (read : 26.5% of the time WSC = 3. 73.5% of the time WSC=4)
    5 STR = fSTR+0.833~1.25 (read: 16.6% of the time it adds nothing, 83.3% of the time it adds 1 WSC
    to 25% of the time it adds 2 fSTR, 75% of the time it adds 1 WSC)

    I think the choice is clear there
    For you maybe, LOL, can you put that into laymen's terms?

    If I may, I am going to try to work myself through the math, any correction would be great.

    I think you are saying that Byakko's Haidate will add 3 base damage to the weapon in question 26.5% of the time and 4 base damage to the weapon in question 73.5% of the time, right?

    The Shura calculation slightly confuses me, because I can not tell what you are including. Maybe it is just the grammar in the way you typed it, but I think something is missing.

    Another question I have from reading your equations is how much is a point of WSC worth compared to a point of fSTR? From reading your equations, am I right to assume that they are roughly equivalent?

    My final question is as follows: Does base damage of the weapons effect any of this? Since Senj is WR of 4 and Unji is WR of 3, does that mean it is easier to cap fSTR on Unji, or since WSC and fSTR are independent it does mean that it does not matter?

    Thanks for all the help.
    I tried to tell you simply that the increase in fSTR is irrelevant without any calculation .....forget modifiers....its about the fact thats it a crit hit WS, i.e. the damage from Jin is pretty crappy unless the WS crits.....
    If DEX does increase your base crit rate (which I think is accepted) then consider for instance a 3 hit NON Crit jin = 300 damage....and all 3 hit Jin all crit = 1000 damage....well obviously one is MUCh bigger than the other...IDK about you but if 15 DEX is like a 1% crit increase ? or whatever the hell it is (Nagamaki did a bunch of work in that regard)...id rather that 1% chance of 700 extra damage in a WS than an extra couple of damage on every WS....which is what fSTR would do for you...

    Stack all the STR in the world you want for Rampage for instance....you get no crits the damage is subpar...

  20. #20
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    Re: Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    I think you are saying that Byakko's Haidate will add 3 base damage to the weapon in question 26.5% of the time and 4 base damage to the weapon in question 73.5% of the time, right?
    Yes. Whether or not you get 3 or 4 added to your Base Damage depends on all the particular values of your STR and DEX at the time of WS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    The Shura calculation slightly confuses me, because I can not tell what you are including. Maybe it is just the grammar in the way you typed it, but I think something is missing.
    STR affects two components of overall Base Damage. fSTR and then the secondary mod (WSC). He's just doing the same thing he did for Haidate, only he's applying it to the 2 Base Damage components that STR affects.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    Another question I have from reading your equations is how much is a point of WSC worth compared to a point of fSTR? From reading your equations, am I right to assume that they are roughly equivalent?
    They are added together to compute the total Base Damage. 1 point WSC is equivallent to 1 point fSTR.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    My final question is as follows: Does base damage of the weapons effect any of this? Since Senj is WR of 4 and Unji is WR of 3, does that mean it is easier to cap fSTR on Unji, or since WSC and fSTR are independent it does mean that it does not matter?
    Weapon damage is another component of the total Base Damage. It affects the total Base Damage term, but you don't need to consider it when comparing 2 pieces of equipment like Shura and Haidate. You're only interested in evaluating their benefit relative to eachother.

    And if you haven't been told enough in this thread, Haidate is the clear winner. ^.^

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