Sipar shield for /NIN tanking

[Seraph]

Long story short, the other night my linkshell killed Adamantoise and I got the Sipar shield that dropped. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Sipar

The wiki claims that it has a base block percentage that is 20% higher than a normal buckler shield as a hidden effect. Some non scientific testing on various EP - EM mobs seems to support this with an average block rate of over 80% on each mob. (I ranged about 80% - 95% in the quick tests I did, nothing conclusive but more than enough to convince me the hidden effect is there.) This is on average 20%+ more than the usual block rate I get with most other shields, which seem to top off at around 65%.

So, with that in mind, my main question is this: has anyone tested this shield in endgame events or soloing where keeping Utsusemi up is vital? I was thinking of this in terms of PLD/NIN tanking compared to using something more mainstream like a Koenig Shield. (I guess this is something to consider for RDM/NIN tanking as well.) I know the loss of -3 Enmity isn't exactly wonderful, but I wonder if the much higher probability of a shield block in conjunction with Shield Mastery would make up for it on mobs that hit like a truck and Utsusemi is what is keeping you alive, not the shield itself.

Anyone have any thoughts, or even have this shield? To be honest, I've heard few talk about it, and even fewer wearing it. The damage reduction numbers looked decent enough on the blocks, but didn't quite match the average numbers provided by a Koenig Shield. I hear that the damage reduction percentage is partially based on the defense rating on the shield, and 20 def on a buckler shield is pretty good making the damage reduction about 35% I guess? (I'm using http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...62662109938677 as a loose reference here. I know, lolAlla and all that, but the tests seem to have some merit...)

Taking into account average damage reduction per proc and average proc rate, Sipar should clock in at something like... 0.35 * 0.85 = 0.2975 or ~30% damage reduction. Koenig seemed to come in with an average of 61% damage reduction per proc... 0.61 * 0.65 = 0.3965 or ~40% damage reduction (assuming you can cap the proc rate). So, with a PLD with high enough shield skill, the debate comes down to ~10% damage reduction on shield blocked hits and +3 Enmity versus an ~20% increased chance to block...

I was secretly hoping this might be a nice addition to my shield collection since an Aegis isn't in my future for quite some time. Does the Sipar just suck, or is its potential relatively unknown and uninvestigated?

[Zosi]

Hate to break it to you, but I doubt that PLDs are going to be lining up to camp Adamantoise for their very own Sipar. Unless you're severely under-supported, I'd say that 10% less damage taken and 3 enmity will do more for your tanking than what ends up being roughly -20% spell interruption. Interruptions shouldn't be THAT much of an issue anyways, with Slow/Elegy on the mob and March/Haste on you.

[Judai]

I rarely get interupted as is, no point in losing enmity and damage reduction of Koenig. If you get interuppted too much you need to learn2shadow better.

[Seraph]

Yeah, I get the benefits of a Koenig Shield, and it's my usual choice. My main thinking was for events where sometimes debuffs dont stick, mobs use AoEs, or I don't have real support. Times like when im PLD/NIN in sky, and Faust is up, and I have no other tank... Keeping shadows up consistently on something like that is aweful... I'm not suggesting this is the endall shield, just kinda pondering if it has its nitch in the "shit is situational" world.

Was just kinda curious if anyone had used the Sipar in a real situation and had any success with it. It just seems like an interesting alternative, and I was a little shaky on trying it out and finding out it sucks and eating the pavement...

[Crizto]

I rarely get interupted as is, no point in losing enmity and damage reduction of Koenig. If you get interuppted too much you need to learn2shadow better.

Yup

[Ravenlokk]

Im gonna have to get another sipar

It's a good point that i hadnt really considered before. It would be good situationally- assuming you don't have an aegis.

that situation- solo tanking khimaira w/out a bard;;

[Minions]

Im gonna have to get another sipar

It's a good point that i hadnt really considered before. It would be good situationally- assuming you don't have an aegis.

that situation- solo tanking khimaira w/out a bard;;

Cerberus...... without slow.... omg. Still fun none the less.

[Kongolo]

uhmm i agree with u seraph but this shield can be very useful in some situations only where fast and hard dmg like MNKs 2h in dyn will rape u if u dont have Sentinel, Rampart, and Defender.

[Carnusty]

uhmm i agree with u seraph but this shield can be very useful in some situations only where fast and hard dmg like MNKs 2h in dyn will rape u if u dont have Sentinel, Rampart, and Defender.

That's why you bring multiple Paladins to dynamis and cycle monk tankage! yaaaay

[Seraph]

As a followup thought, what about PLD/RDM tanking? Might be nice for those Phalanx and Stoneskin recasts since their cast times aren't exactly instant. It's also more of a solo situation, so Enmity isn't really as much of a factor, and keeping spells up might reduce damage taken by more than 10%...

Thoughts?

[Neosutra]

As a followup thought, what about PLD/RDM tanking? Might be nice for those Phalanx and Stoneskin recasts since their cast times aren't exactly instant. It's also more of a solo situation, so Enmity isn't really as much of a factor, and keeping spells up might reduce damage taken by more than 10%...

Thoughts?

Bucklar type shields already have a block percentage that is around 80% or higher, their tradeoff being minimal damage absorbtion. As stated by most people, most of the mobs in the game can be tanked /nin with a koenig just fine, as unless your solo tanking something that triple attacks alot, you wont have problems with shadows. With haste and march, and good rdms/brds, Your Ni recast is rediculously low, and just about anything in the game is a snooze fest to tank. Though I realize not everything goes that smoothly. As for Soloing /nin or /rdm, small shields actually work good for another reason:

With phalanx, and koenig sheild, I block about 60%+ of the time when soloing /rdm. Every block is 0 damage on anything low tough and below, which means no shield mastery TP bonus. So you build TP a good deal slower then if you were to use a smaller shield, that blocks more often. Instead of

23--- 0--- 0---- 0 --- 19--- 0---- 17--- 0--- 0--- 0 ---- 22

You get:

4 ---- 3 ---- 7 ---- 2--- 0 --- 7 --- 4 --- 8 --- 5 --- 7 --- 8 --- 3

The down side is the mob is also getting more TP. So when farming easy prey or less, I use a small shield with attack benifits, when soloing harder things I use kaiser shield. The hardest thing ive soloed /rdm (other then various NMS) is a VT. I prefer /nin for anything that really trully hits hard as with /nin, ares body, parade gorget, chivalry, ethearal earring, and autorefresh, I can outlast just about anything.

Cant wait till I finish Aegis, then we will see how much better /rdm and /nin are


BTW if you want a real challenge, go solo the VT marids outside. They are good practice for soloing things that attack slow, but also dealing with occasional attacking fast chigoes (good for farming seals too). Just save TP for each Chigoe spawn and pace your MP.

[SassiAsura]

Wouldn't mind getting one to skill shield up with.

[Neosutra]

Wouldn't mind getting one to skill shield up with.

Dynamis Monks.

[Talis]

The wiki claims that it has a base block percentage that is 20% higher than a normal buckler shield as a hidden effect

I think this supposed hidden effect is more people misunderstanding how block rate vs shield type works then a real effect. To verify this you'd need to compare the block rate to both a Class 3 (koenig) and a buckler type shield (which I've done, and found sipar block rate comperable to the buckler type, and of course naturally higher then the class 3).

That being said, I can't see that many situations where having an increased block rate from a buckler type shield would really improve your survivability. Solo pld/nin tanking lolhydra maybe, or some of the other fast attacking ToAU mobs, but even then I'd rather just have a co-tank that can trade hate to get shadows back up.

[Popsiclestick]

Ohhhh and to think i tossed that :/ would of been nice to use it for shield skills ups on my rdm

[ninjafox]

^ I was about to ask if this would be a nice shield for shield skill on rdm

[Seraph]

Bucklar type shields already have a block percentage that is around 80% or higher, their tradeoff being minimal damage absorbtion.

Is this the case? I was always under the assumption that most shields capped at about 65% block rate and it was just how much Shield skill you needed to cap it based on its type. This always seemed to be logical since the progression of shields allows for more variety of larger shields as you level, but you start with only tier 1 and tier 2 shields in the low levels. I'll be the first to admit though, I have never tested this. I might have to break out the Light Buckler and see how it measures up against Sipar.

Anyone have any hard data to back this claim up? Is the 65% block ceiling only applicable to (possibly) Round, Kite, and Tower shields?

EDIT:
I grabed this from a different thread in this forum... http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...20795&start=30

Quote:
Monastic Cavern, Coffer mobs (EP, L67 max), 302 Shield Skill, 75 PLD

Tatami Shield (size 4): blocked 129/332 attacks, 38.86%, estimated 80% damage reduction. Overall damage reduced = 30%
Koenig Shield (size 3): blocked 265/421 attacks, 62.95%, estimated 60% damage reduction. Overall damage reduced = 37.8%
Bulwark Shield (size 1): blocked 165/256 attacks, 64.45%, estimated 0% damage reduction. Overall damage reduced = 0%

Does this in fact put the Hidden +20% Block rate effect back on the table?

[Minions]

Bucklar type shields already have a block percentage that is around 80% or higher, their tradeoff being minimal damage absorbtion.

Is this the case? I was always under the assumption that most shields capped at about 65% block rate and it was just how much Shield skill you needed to cap it based on its type. This always seemed to be logical since the progression of shields allows for more variety of larger shields as you level, but you start with only tier 1 and tier 2 shields in the low levels. I'll be the first to admit though, I have never tested this. I might have to break out the Light Buckler and see how it measures up against Sipar.

Anyone have any hard data to back this claim up? Is the 65% block ceiling only applicable to (possibly) Round, Kite, and Tower shields?

EDIT:
I grabed this from a different thread in this forum... http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...20795&start=30
[quote:c1435]Quote:
Monastic Cavern, Coffer mobs (EP, L67 max), 302 Shield Skill, 75 PLD

Tatami Shield (size 4): blocked 129/332 attacks, 38.86%, estimated 80% damage reduction. Overall damage reduced = 30%
Koenig Shield (size 3): blocked 265/421 attacks, 62.95%, estimated 60% damage reduction. Overall damage reduced = 37.8%
Bulwark Shield (size 1): blocked 165/256 attacks, 64.45%, estimated 0% damage reduction. Overall damage reduced = 0%

Does this in fact put the Hidden +20% Block rate effect back on the table?[/quote:c1435]

If 80% was the case I don't think anyone would not be wearing a buckler, I wore Ancile and tanked faf/cerb with it so..... the block rate really is no where near 80% even with 306 shield skill.

[Seraph]

If 80% was the case I don't think anyone would not be wearing a buckler, I wore Ancile and tanked faf/cerb with it so..... the block rate really is no where near 80% even with 306 shield skill.

But see, that's exactly my point. I think the Sipar seems to break the usual rules of shield blocking, and could potentially fill an nice hole in the tanking world, where getting a block off can be the difference between staying alive and dying...

Does any shield besides apparently Sipar and possibly Aegis block more often than 65% reguardless of skill? (What is the block rate of Aegis? Still 65% but with an insane damage reduction per block?)

[Ferien]

viewtopic.php?p=655560#p655560

Thread right below this one >.> based on that PLD's Shield skill, AGI, etc, Aegis proc'd around 60%.