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  1. #1
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    After the update, I have found that I much prefer Soboro for XPing with so my question becomes: Should I take off my Brutal Earring. I have heard that many Ridill WARs try to keep their double attack procs to a minimum because a double attack proc will prevent a triple attack proc from going off. Is this really an issue I should concern myself with, or should I just hope to increase my DA procs as much as possible anyway?

  2. #2
    A. Body
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Obviously, you should get rid of Brutal; They don't stack.

  3. #3
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by LD
    Obviously, you should get rid of Brutal; They don't stack.
    I know, they don't stack. I mentioned that. Let me refine my question and try to get at why that is the case.

    Soboro can attack 1-3 times, each with equal chance of happening (Is this correct?). If I DA on any attack round it would automatically limit my attacks to 2 for that round. Since 2 attacks is going to be the mean for the number of attacks per round, using the Brutal Earring isn't going to hurt my over all mean, it will just increase the number of median attack rounds. Since, statistically, the number of 1 attack and 3 attack rounds should still balance (because DA should, statically, proc equally over all three possible attack rounds) doesn't that mean that the Brutal Earring essentially becomes a wasted slot?

    So, in essence, its not that the Brutal Earring doesn't stack, its that it overwrites the Soboro, and since this shouldn't statistically effect the number of attacks in a round overall, it will have no effect and a better earring can be used.

    Another random question, how does Zanshin proc on a multi-hit attack round? Say you hit once and miss once? I assume it would not proc in that case. Is this correct? What about an attack round with three swings that all miss? Could you then get a fourth Zanshin swing from it?

  4. #4
    Relic Shield
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree
    So, in essence, its not that the Brutal Earring doesn't stack, its that it overwrites the Soboro, and since this shouldn't statistically effect the number of attacks in a round overall, it will have no effect and a better earring can be used.
    Basically. Since Soboro's (and Ridill's) mean/median is already 2, all it will do is lower your deviation from that mean. It will lower both your single attacks and your triple attacks. If you want more consistent TP gain, go with Brutal, but it won't give you an actual increase or decrease your output or TP, so if you're looking for that, there are better options.

    Another random question, how does Zanshin proc on a multi-hit attack round? Say you hit once and miss once? I assume it would not proc in that case. Is this correct? What about an attack round with three swings that all miss? Could you then get a fourth Zanshin swing from it?
    From what I've read, Zanshin will only proc on the first swing, and if it procs, Soboro won't. It's tough to tell with Soboro when Zanshin is or isn't proc'ing, but I've never seen a round with more than 3 swings.

  5. #5
    E. Body
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Soboro can attack 1-3 times, each with equal chance of happening (Is this correct?). If I DA on any attack round it would automatically limit my attacks to 2 for that round. Since 2 attacks is going to be the mean for the number of attacks per round, using the Brutal Earring isn't going to hurt my over all mean, it will just increase the number of median attack rounds. Since, statistically, the number of 1 attack and 3 attack rounds should still balance (because DA should, statically, proc equally over all three possible attack rounds) doesn't that mean that the Brutal Earring essentially becomes a wasted slot?
    You are correct. A Brutal Earring does literally nothing for Soboro, Mercurial Kris/Sword, and Ridill, is only half as effective on Joyeuse (basically, +2.5% double attack), and is actually a bad thing for Mercurial Pole (which is 4 hits, right?) and higher (ending at Kraken Club)

  6. #6
    Relic Shield
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Ridill doesn't have a mean of 2 attacks per round though. 1-attack rounds seem to be roughly twice as common as 3-attack rounds by the data posted on pedia (As well as from personal experience). If Soboro is the same, Brutal actually is still helping you.

  7. #7
    New Spam Forum
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeks
    Ridill doesn't have a mean of 2 attacks per round though. 1-attack rounds seem to be roughly twice as common as 3-attack rounds by the data posted on pedia (As well as from personal experience). If Soboro is the same, Brutal actually is still helping you.
    The tests posted on wiki were both done by testing on WAR, which is a horrible choice to find out the actual proc rate of single/double/triple in the absence of double attack.

  8. #8
    Relic Shield
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Yes, but it's not such a horrible choice to determine the relative frequency of 1-attack vs. 3-attack rounds. Just makes it take longer to get an adequate sample size.

  9. #9
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    I think I would use Brutal anyway. Fewer 3-hit procs but more also fewer single hits. I like the consistency.

  10. #10
    Tom Wilson will never be good.
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeks
    Yes, but it's not such a horrible choice to determine the relative frequency of 1-attack vs. 3-attack rounds. Just makes it take longer to get an adequate sample size.
    Yes it is a horrible test if DA is calculated before the weapons Triple attack. It would lower the amount of possible triple attack procs and skew the data.

  11. #11
    New Spam Forum
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judai
    Quote Originally Posted by Weeks
    Yes, but it's not such a horrible choice to determine the relative frequency of 1-attack vs. 3-attack rounds. Just makes it take longer to get an adequate sample size.
    Yes it is a horrible test if DA is calculated before the weapons Triple attack. It would lower the amount of possible triple attack procs and skew the data.
    No, he is correct, the ratio of single:triple should be intact if given a large enough sample size because it will negate triple attack and single attack at an equal rate.

    I just think it would be nice to have a BST or DRK test it to see the base rates of single/double/triple.

  12. #12
    ( o )( o )
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    I'm not sure if Soboro experiences the same distribution, but here is what I got while testing Ridill. (RNG/NIN, no brutal, etc)
    Sorry the sample size isn't larger, my NPC decided to leave then and figured it was time for me to go as well. Either way, it would seem that double attacking is most frequent by far, accounting for almost half of the attack rounds.

    Single Hit : 123
    Double Hit : 204
    Triple Hit : 75

  13. #13

    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeks
    Ridill doesn't have a mean of 2 attacks per round though. 1-attack rounds seem to be roughly twice as common as 3-attack rounds by the data posted on pedia (As well as from personal experience). If Soboro is the same, Brutal actually is still helping you.
    Except that based on those tests from the wiki with ridill, adding double attack gear didn't help his average number of swings, it actually slightly decreased it.

  14. #14
    Champion of the House of Weave
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    I have a similar question that came up in the Advanced section:

    Uh sort of off topic, but how does Triple Attack vs Double Attack work? Would it be dumb for someone who stacks on DA to have something like a Algol or Homam Corazza?
    (BRP originally asked and I'm curious as well)

  15. #15
    assburgers
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    That is a really good question actually.

    I too have wondered about that.

    We know Ridill/Soboro/KClub proc in their own orders.

    Guess the determining factor would be, what order do they check in, and is it totally cumulative.

    Say you start with 10% /War Double, 5% Brutal, 2.5% Triple from Corazza, and 3% from Algol.

    Seems like you'd have 15% Double, 5.5% Triple, 79.5% Single, but it can't just be that simple, nothing else works out so easily it seems. T.T

  16. #16

    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judai
    Quote Originally Posted by Weeks
    Yes, but it's not such a horrible choice to determine the relative frequency of 1-attack vs. 3-attack rounds. Just makes it take longer to get an adequate sample size.
    Yes it is a horrible test if DA is calculated before the weapons Triple attack. It would lower the amount of possible triple attack procs and skew the data.
    The test showed how +17% DA from various sources substantially decreases the number of Triple attacks compared to +10% (I'm pretty sure it was confirmed elsewhere that the job trait indeed provides a flat 10% bonus), while the number of single attacks remains pretty much unchanged.

    There's probably a minimum value of TA procs rate that once reached couldn't be lowered further regardless how much DA gets artificially inoculated into your character (5% perhaps?) but I haven't been able to test the sword with a Corsair spamming Fighter's Roll yet, unfortunately.

    My test evidently doesn't give us conclusive data about the real single/double/triple attacks distribution the sword would have while wielded by a "neutral" job (which can be sorta safely assumed though, I'd love to test this myself but my only 75's are WAR, PLD and Ninjer) however it shows very well how detrimental using anything that increases your DA chances would be for your Ridill performances (which was the point of the whole test, I couldn't care less about Ridill actual proc rate in absence of DA since I'm using it on Warrior anyway and so isn't 90% of Ridill owners) and the sample size wasn't that small on both tests either (1000+ rounds of swings each time).

    Obviously we don't know if the same behaviour carries over to Soboro (I've never used one therefore I have no clue) or any of the other "2-3" weapons or how DA is applied to their multi-hits proc rates yet, notwithstanding, it's pretty useful data for any RidillWAR out there. I think you're either biased or haven't checked the data from my second testing session and the comparison that ensued, because belittling or overlooking such data would be just as foolish as merit'ing Warcry.

    These are the tests I was referring to: Talk:Ridill

  17. #17

    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynsy
    I'm not sure if Soboro experiences the same distribution, but here is what I got while testing Ridill. (RNG/NIN, no brutal, etc)
    Sorry the sample size isn't larger, my NPC decided to leave then and figured it was time for me to go as well. Either way, it would seem that double attacking is most frequent by far, accounting for almost half of the attack rounds.
    Have you taken in account that mob's HP's are a limiting factor for Ridill double and triple attacks proc rate and generally speaking for anything that allows you to perform an extra attack (the analogies with multi-hit WS's damage being truncated once the mob has exhausted his Hit Points should be evident), therefore the killing blow is usually less likely to be a triple?

    As a case in point, if you go whack mandies Lv1 outside Windurst with a Ridill you'll end up performing 100 single attacks in a row unless you miraculously manage to miss the first hit(s), even when Warrior's Charge (forced DA) is activated.

  18. #18
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynsy
    I'm not sure if Soboro experiences the same distribution, but here is what I got while testing Ridill. (RNG/NIN, no brutal, etc)
    Sorry the sample size isn't larger, my NPC decided to leave then and figured it was time for me to go as well. Either way, it would seem that double attacking is most frequent by far, accounting for almost half of the attack rounds.

    Single Hit : 123
    Double Hit : 204
    Triple Hit : 75
    Did you count attack rounds when the mob died?

  19. #19
    Relic Weapons
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    I was under the impression that when ridill swings there's a chance that its "Occasionally attacks 2-3 times" procs, and you attack 2-3 times. If it doesn't proc, you end up with a normal 1-handed swing that can be double attacked or triple attacked from /war, brutal earring, THF main, etc etc.

    I'm just a monk though and am basing this off what I think I saw someone say earlier.

  20. #20
    Relic Shield
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    Re: Soboro and Brutal Earring question.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrObvious
    Quote Originally Posted by Weeks
    Ridill doesn't have a mean of 2 attacks per round though. 1-attack rounds seem to be roughly twice as common as 3-attack rounds by the data posted on pedia (As well as from personal experience). If Soboro is the same, Brutal actually is still helping you.
    Except that based on those tests from the wiki with ridill, adding double attack gear didn't help his average number of swings, it actually slightly decreased it.
    That can really only be explained by sample size issues or extraneous factors (Mob level, time of day, changes in an update?), unless you really believe that Double Attack traits will selectively overwrite 3-attack rounds rather than 1-attack rounds.

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