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  1. #1

    Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    interesting background and foreshadowing here:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=15400

    AGDC: How Square Enix Hunts The Hunters

    AGDC: How Square Enix Hunts The Hunters “I finally get the chance to escape Tokyo City,” began Hiromichi Tanaka, an executive officer at Square Enix, and producer of Final Fantasy XI, at his Austin GDC keynote on Thursday. Tanaka's experience includes work on Final Fantasy 1, 2, and 3, as well as Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and Secret of Mana.

    Addressing wide-ranging topics, Tanaka first outlined the successes of Final Fantasy, with 12 unique installments, and 75 million in sales worldwide. Interestingly though, the first Final Fantasy only sold 500,000 copies, dwarfed by the mighty Dragon Quest from Enix. Final Fantasy III was Squaresoft’s first million seller, with Final Fantasy II at about 750,000.

    On Building Final Fantasy XI

    Final Fantasy XI, the company’s first MMO, was also the world’s first cross-platform MMO, according to Tanaka. “The game was developed from the start with the intention of having common worldwide servers,” he said, which presented a significant technical hurdle. “The roots of FFXI stretch back to 1999 – after Chrono Cross had been released, we had returned from vacation, and teamed up with the Legend of Mana and Parasite Eve teams.”

    Tanaka revealed that there was originally a different version of the game planned: “Back in the early stages of development, we were working with Microsoft on a version for the original Xbox. However, due to a number of reasons, we were forced to abandon those plans. The main reason was that the original Xbox only came with 2GB hard drive. Currently it uses an 8 GB section of the PS2 HDD. This was to ensure that there’d be enough room for expansions,” he said, adding that mass storage is a lifeline for MMOs.

    It took the company 2 years to complete the German and French translations, recently released, because of depth of existing content. “It also didn’t help that we released updates and expansions while the French and German teams were working on the game. But now, all versions are working simultaneously,” he says.

    Tanaka then outlined the company’s PlayOnline service, Square Enix’s game client which runs on top of existing hardware architectures. This was originally poised as not only a game portal, but also for music and manga. While some other games have been released through PlayOnline, none were as successful as FFXI, and features such as music downloads never materialized. “It’s beneficial because it’s got a good payment platform, independent from any hardware,” Tanaka maintains, though anecdotal evidence from users shows that it can be a bit of an extra hassle.

    The Final Fantasy XI population, he says, is split between 32 public game worlds, with 15k-20k unique users per world, and 200k-300k users logging in per day.

    The Problems Of RMT In FFXI

    Takana then brought Sage Sundi on stage to talk about real money trading, or RMT. Sundi joined the MMO industry as a volunteer for Ultima Online, then became a UO game master, than a UO Japan producer – today he works on Square Enix’s PlayOnline service.

    “The original design of FFXI didn’t allow money trading, so we decided not to allow RMT in any way,” said Sundi. “A special task force was organized, and 90% of RMT related in-game activities have been removed.”

    In Final Fantasy XI, RMT groups work like this: Hunter groups scour areas, some groups have as many as 300. The ‘banks’ are the people who gather up the money. Then there’s the front-end, who find users to have transactions with. Then there’s an out-of-game website where the transaction takes place.

    To achieve their goal of reducing RMT, the group had two main tasks – analysis, and feedback. The team members would go over databases in a log-based investigation, looking for hacks. Initially this was done once a month, now they do it once per week, along with tips from users.

    Some RMT Lessons From The Game

    Along the way, Square Enix came up with a number of conclusions during the RMT battle.

    1. Most larger RMT organizations are connected. With the exception of a few small independent parties, almost all of the larger RMT organizations were connected to one another. With common funds, they’ve formed a type of network.

    2. Removing front-end sellers and ‘banks’ is not enough. “This is just a temporary solution, and was one of our first mistakes. It stemmed from not understanding how these groups really operated. When we did this, it encouraged the remaining hunters to work harder to compensate for losses. That’s when we switched our tactics to search databases for the hunters. This was much more effective.”

    3. They’ll be back. “No matter if we ban them, they’ll create a new account and get back to work. It’s like a game of cat and mouse, with persistence being the key to victory.”

    4. Maintain a good data log system. “We required the help of the development team. Their tactics change – they could be using bots, or warping to complete the same quest. “

    5. Never stop modifying the game system. “With every patch, we gather feedback and fix some of the most critical problems. But we have to be careful that our changes won’t too heavily affect our players.”

    6. Set fair guidelines to determine whether a player can be determined as a RMT player. “We can’t ban whole countries, or just go on tips. It’s just unacceptable and irresponsible. This guideline has to be kept internal, otherwise people would know how to exploit it within weeks.”

    7. Just like in America, nobody likes working with lawyers. “But we have to join hands and fight the good fight, and sometimes lawyers can be our best ally. Once we had their support, we were able to confront RMT groups with the knowledge that a lawyer would be there if they didn’t respond.”

    In terms of results, approximately 2/3 of RMT sites supplying FFXI have disappeared, and 90% of ‘hunters’ have been removed.

    Onward To Wings of the Goddess

    At this point Tanka returned to the stage, speaking a bit about the company’s 4th expansion, Wings of the Goddess, simultaneous release this winter for all languages and platforms – 12 SKUs in all.

    Final Fantasy XI still has 500,000 players across the globe. “If they keep playing, we’ll keep developing,” says Tanaka. “We realize there are some limitations to the current foundation. In the past years, the hardware advancements have been amazing, from windows vista to 360 and PS3. Comparing these structures, FFXI looks old, due to its 7 year old architecture.”

    Square Enix’s next MMO will be cross platform and cross region. “A lot has changed in the last two years,” he says, referencing the game’s first announcement at E3 2005. “Development is proceeding smoothly now, with the framework now beginning to take shape. Last year we went through a development reorganization, with the development of our own cross-platform middleware – the white engine. This is the foundation for FFXIII and the new MMO. It’s safe to say that it won’t be much longer before I’m able to unveil even more secrets about what the future holds for Square Enix.”

    During the closing Q&A, an attendee asked about the possibility of a Wii port, with the technical and cross-platform challenges. To this point, Takana said: “As for Nintendo Wii it would be pretty difficult if you were to do cross-platform. First of all, Nintendo isn’t allowing cross-platform, and as you know there’s the graphical issue. So right now we’re not looking at it.”
    talk on the white engine being the basis of FFXIII and the next mmo, while being cross platform? hmmmmm....

  2. #2
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Correct answer to BRP's poll: now?

  3. #3
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    “A special task force was organized, and 90% of RMT related in-game activities have been removed.”
    That seems wayyyyyy too high.

  4. #4

    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    An interesting read.
    Even if they were paying us lip service reference the RMT, I think it's clear that they do take it seriously and it's interesting to see how they went about their investigations.

  5. #5
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFlare
    Square Enix’s next MMO will be cross platform and cross region. “A lot has changed in the last two years,” he says, referencing the game’s first announcement at E3 2005. “Development is proceeding smoothly now, with the framework now beginning to take shape. Last year we went through a development reorganization, with the development of our own cross-platform middleware – the white engine. This is the foundation for FFXIII and the new MMO. It’s safe to say that it won’t be much longer before I’m able to unveil even more secrets about what the future holds for Square Enix.”
    :D
    About time. FFXI is fun but its getting pretty dated

  6. #6
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomiko
    “A special task force was organized, and 90% of RMT related in-game activities have been removed.”
    That seems wayyyyyy too high.

    Prices on a lot of shit have decreased by over 90%.


    Probably 65-70% of the primary things rmt used to camp are r/ex now.


    And yeah... I honestly don't remember the last time I saw an rmt other than at amemet.

    Although I haven't camped Behemoth in months now.

  7. #7

    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    They're always at Behemoth on Hades. Saw a small bunch of what appeared to be RMT at Tiamat camp the other day too...not sure what they were planning on doing with 5 BLMs, 1 WHM and a THF but that's another story.
    Back on topic I don't think the 90% claim is outrageous, though I'd be interested to see how they came to that conclusion.

  8. #8
    Melee Summoner
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    I still see RMT at Behemoth/Cassie/Roc/Simurgh/Serket and most of the weak gil NMs like Padfoot and Poisonhand .Oh and they camp King Arthro still which is annoying as hell.. more RMT have Velocious belt on Lakshmi than normal players. However there are a hell of a lot less RMT than there once were.. at their peak I had a list of 200+ names that I kept sending to the RMT force to get removed, they're all gone now, about 20 left on the server excluding the ones they are levelling up

  9. #9
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Quote Originally Posted by moguri

    :D
    About time. FFXI is fun but its getting pretty dated
    The answer to the people that play on PC and want more storage, more textures, more larger maps, more character inventory slots, etc. This should make loads of people on BG happy. The Wii nor PS2 will be involved. Now about those PS3/Xbox360 limitations... :/

  10. #10

    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Last year we went through a development reorganization, with the development of our own cross-platform middleware – the white engine. This is the foundation for FFXIII and the new MMO. It’s safe to say that it won’t be much longer before I’m able to unveil even more secrets about what the future holds for Square Enix.”
    Wow, this is the most surprising quote I've heard from SE since they announced DQIX for the DS.

    I never thought they were going to use the WE for those purpouses, it was always thought that it would be a PS3 specific engine, while UE3 (Unreal Engine 3) would be used for cross-plataforms projects, now this is worth of discussing in GAF.

  11. #11

    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Starting over a new MMO is scary, what will happen to my +1 gearz?!

  12. #12
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    I see a hint about FFXIII having the possibility to go multiplatform.

  13. #13
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    What other platform would they put FFXIII on? Personally I think the translation or something was mixed up. Why wouldn't they use the UE3 licensed engine for ffXI-2?

  14. #14

    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    New MMO please, I'm bored of FFXI.

  15. #15
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    They just need to get rid of camping for NMs (didn't like them in FFXII and it's boring in FFXI) and make gear progression that's not sidegrades and it would already be heading in the right direction. They should rethink their PVP ideas in FFXI also.

  16. #16
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    During the closing Q&A, an attendee asked about the possibility of a Wii port, with the technical and cross-platform challenges. To this point, Takana said: “As for Nintendo Wii it would be pretty difficult if you were to do cross-platform. First of all, Nintendo isn’t allowing cross-platform, and as you know there’s the graphical issue. So right now we’re not looking at it.”
    In before wii limitations.

    You know somebody had to do it

  17. #17
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Quote Originally Posted by Epical
    Correct answer to BRP's poll: now?
    i don't think so. we still don't know anything.

    don't know if it's going to be an FF game, don't know if it's going to be heavy sci-fi or heavy high fantasy, don't know if it will be heavy PvP based, don't know when it will come out or when it will be ready for beta testing.

    there's just minor elaboration of stuff we already knew, going to be cross platform (PS3, 360, Vista), but not Wii (which we kind of expected). cross region is kind of expected too.

  18. #18
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Quote Originally Posted by Ploid
    They just need to get rid of camping for NMs (didn't like them in FFXII and it's boring in FFXI) and make gear progression that's not sidegrades and it would already be heading in the right direction. They should rethink their PVP ideas in FFXI also.
    Have you SEEN the bitching that goes on when gear is obsoleted? People in general like sidegrades more, they just need more inventory space to make them viable.


    Also,

    white engine weeps gently.

  19. #19
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    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Another interview, posted on 1up.com along similar lines

    Final Fantasy XI Producer Hiromichi Tanaka hit the floor today at the Austin GDC loaded with info, not all of it entirely to do with Final Fantasy XI.

    Besides extolling the virtues of using the same servers for all regions (everyone has to sleep, and one country's peaks will fall into the others valleys,) he was happy to announce that FFXI's gil-seller problem is just about licked and eager to share the trick with everyone else.

    Global Online Producer Sage Sundi stepped in to explain. Aside from the usual vigilant log checking, he advised that exclusively eliminating the actual pushers and their caches of in-game loot is a temporary solution at best, and can possibly make things worse. Wiping out the banks just makes farmers work that much harder to recover the loss. The best method is to aggressively go after the farmers themselves by making changes to the game itself that will render their methods ineffective, without adversely impacting legitimate players -- like a monster they added to high level fishing areas that tends to eat low level botters who don't have any business being there. He explained that while "just like in America, no one in Japan likes working with lawyers," coordination with a legal team helps a lot, even if it's frustrating and time consuming.

    With all that, they believe they've dropped the number of actual farmers by 90, and the statistics seem to back it up. Over the last year, the value of gil has been deflating, almost down to its early 2006 levels.

    Tanaka also spoke a bit about PlayOnline, otherwise known as that annoying front end that doesn't do anything that you have to click through to play online. "The concept was first envisioned not just as a platform for online games, but as a platform for downloading music and media," he said. "Features such as music download have not been realized."

    Finally, he talked a little bit about the future beyond FFXI. "We realize there are some limitations to Final Fantasy XI...compared to [current] platforms, FFXI's looks may seem a little outdated."

    Square-Enix has been working on a next-generation MMO, first announced at E3 2005 and seldom mentioned since. Tanaka did, however offer assurances that "development on this is progressing smoothly." The still unnamed MMO is being developed for Square's own cross-platform middleware engine, formally called the "White Engine," which is also being used for Final Fantasy XIII. The new MMO should be, like FFXI before it, available across all current platforms, with one notable exception: Wii.

    "As for Nintendo Wii, it would be pretty difficult. Nintendo is not currently allowing cross-platform [online] titles," he said. "Currently we are not looking at Wii as a platform for the new MMORPG. It is possible technically, however."

    No more details were forthcoming, but will probably be along some time soon. Tanaka ended saying it won't be much longer before he could unveil more secrets
    After reading this, I did a little bit of digging around & ran about this little tidbit. Granted this is pure speculation, but it makes me wonder...

    http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...nFF-H-XIII.jpg
    The newest addition to the Fabula Nova Crystallis Project, Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII is, until now, a complete mystery. The only known thing is that Square Enix has registered the trademark for the name and logo for Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII, though the logo is under management. Nobody knows what to be expected yet. (Square Enix).
    Could this potentially be the next MMO that SE is working on? Look at the facts. You have a series of games that is being concurently designed using a single engine for multiple platforms. And now with talk of SE's next MMO starting to surface again, it would be a logical fit for Haeresis to be that next MMO.

  20. #20

    Re: Sage Sundi on RMT, also info on the next MMO from SE

    Quote Originally Posted by theo
    During the closing Q&A, an attendee asked about the possibility of a Wii port, with the technical and cross-platform challenges. To this point, Takana said: “As for Nintendo Wii it would be pretty difficult if you were to do cross-platform. First of all, Nintendo isn’t allowing cross-platform, and as you know there’s the graphical issue. So right now we’re not looking at it.”
    In before wii limitations.

    You know somebody had to do it

    Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles : The Crystal Bearers

    Single player only, amirite?



    Damn Nintendo, setup a proper online network already.

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