PLD: Level 70s Body Armor

[Jeryhn]

My PLD is currently level 37, but I'm planning ahead. Now I see a lot of PLDs running around these days with Team Gallant sigs, and honestly, I'm kinda wondering why it isn't Team Adaman? Basically Gallant Surcoat vs. Adaman Cuirass. Let's look at the stats:

Gallant Surcoat
DEF: 47, HP +20, VIT +4, Enmity +2, Divine Magic Skill +5

Adaman Cuirass
DEF: 52, MP +8, VIT +4, MND +4, Enmity +3

I also have Crimson Scale Mail, if that's a viable choice at all.
DEF: 52, HP +40, MP +40, INT +10, MND +10, Breath Damage Taken -10%

Now, to me it seems that Adaman has a better overall collection of stats than Gallant, particularly the MP and the Enmity. 20 HP is a nice boost, but I don't plan on being at 100% HP all the time, whereas additional MP will allow more HP recovery through Cure (Basic premise of 8 MP = 30 HP!) or for Flash, and it will make Sanction Refresh flag marginally faster. There's also the marginal bonuses of Defense and MND (for lowering Slow% proc against myself).

On the other hand, Crimson Scale Mail seems great too, for many of the above reasons. Lots of HP/MP, INT for reducing spell damage, MND for reducing Slow, and I'm sure breath damage reduction comes in handy. Its downside is that it has no Enmity bonus, but you might be able to argue that the additional HP and MP would outweigh the Enmity bonus on a few collective actions. There's also the whole "turns you into a dragon" thing that might be dicey considering the popularity of Bahamut's Mask with co-tanks and trying to Cure them.

Now, am I all wrong? Is that small, small bit of HP really going to matter if I'm suited up for reducing magic damage and all the other jazz that will occur on the rest of my gear slots? Not that I plan on keeping myself at max MP all the time either, but I would think the +1 Enmity would be the main thing making all the difference between both pieces. Does the +5 Divine matter at all?

There's also lolKoenig, but uh... yeah, lolKoenig.

For additional info, I'll give you a rundown of my merits as well:
8 MP (This won't change.)
8 Sword
4 Shield
4 Spell Interruption Rate
(Still undecided on how to finish up the rest of the "other category".)

For PLD specific merits, I plan on going:
5 MND (Benefits my RDM and SMN as well.)
5 Sentinel Recast
5 Rampart Recast
3 Chivalry
1 Fealty
1 Guardian
1 Iron Will

So what's up? Am I on the right track, or is my more "magey" setup for a PLD too much of a "brave new world"?

[Ryko]

Edit: Fucking A I just lost my entire fucking post. I'll try to summarize it.

Between gallant (I upgraded mine so it pulled ahead in the vit and DEF department) and adaman, the difference is pretty much academic but if I had to choose between 20 HP and 8 MP when I can only blast my bar as fast as I can recover it anyway I'd go with the 20 HP. I think iron will is practically worthless as the only times you're going to be using rampart are times where you either cant be interrupted or it's irrelevant anyway (see: when sentinel and shield bash are down and you're about to eat a dread storm [so you're terrored for a second or 2 and you're not going to be casting anyway] or when a wyrm takes off so you're not taking physical hits anyway) I'd say guardian is sort of meh too but I'd rather have that for the purpose of restoring myself to the enmity cap after a roar or something than iron will. Shortening sentinel and rampart is solid, and your mind merits will at least serve a purpose on PLD for chivalry I guess.

I wouldn't wear crimson, I hate seeing people being intimidated by me when they're trying to save me in a shitty situation. I havent died to it yet but I'm knocking on wood.

[Jeryhn]

I guess for consummates sake, I'll list Gallant Surcoat +1 as well.
DEF: 55, HP +20, VIT +6, Enmity +2, Divine Magic Skill +8

I think iron will is practically worthless as the only times you're going to be using rampart are times where you either cant be interrupted or it's irrelevant anyway (see: when sentinel and shield bash are down and you're about to eat a dread storm [so you're terrored for a second or 2 and you're not going to be casting anyway] or when a wyrm takes off so you're not taking physical hits anyway) I'd say guardian is sort of meh too but I'd rather have that for the purpose of restoring myself to the enmity cap after a roar or something than iron will.

Much of the reason I'm considering unlocking Iron Will instead of a second upgrade into Guardian was Dreadstorm itself, actually. Assuming the spell interruption bonus carries over to the other members of your party, I see it as being beneficial not only for covering the damage from the attack, but also getting shadows back up after it, as I'm sure people will be jamming their macros to do so. I might not necessarily have hate after the attack lands, so Shield Mastery doesn't really strike me as a counter-argument for myself. As for the whole Spell Interruption business, I solo on RDM pretty often, and I'm a huge believer in Aquaveil. I use it all the time, and coupled with my merits, it really does make a ton of difference on slower-casting spells like Stoneskin.

Your argument for Guardian and recovering after a wyrm's Roar is pretty spot-on though, except that Guardian is only good with Sentinel, just as Iron Will is only good with Rampart. Shit is situational I guess. That's why I want to unlock both instead of choosing between one or the other.

I wouldn't wear crimson, I hate seeing people being intimidated by me when they're trying to save me in a shitty situation. I havent died to it yet but I'm knocking on wood.

Out of curiosity, assuming Dragon Killer effects aren't even an issue, do you think this piece can stand up to an Enmity+ armor at all?

[Suiram]

I'm confused by the intimidation line. I thought it was only the person wearing crimson armor who would be intimidated, and only by someone with "Dragon Killer" effect. So then a PLD wearing crimson scale mail wouldn't intimidate anyone by virtue of that alone, and would only run the risk of themselves being intimidated if they were, say, curing someone with a Hrotti or what have you. Or do I have it completely backwards?

[Jeryhn]

I'm confused by the intimidation line. I thought it was only the person wearing crimson armor who would be intimidated, and only by someone with "Dragon Killer" effect. So then a PLD wearing crimson scale mail wouldn't intimidate anyone by virtue of that alone, and would only run the risk of themselves being intimidated if they were, say, curing someone with a Hrotti or what have you. Or do I have it completely backwards?

I believe he means situations like an RDM wearing Crimson Cuisses trying to toss him a Cure 4, but getting intimidated by his Mask.

[Suiram]

Oh sorry, I think I see what he means now.

[Ganondorf]

I went with Adaman until Valor, I don't regret it. 1 Enmity vs 20 HP; either way won't make or break you, but Adaman looks ugly as sin, no matter what the rest of your gear looks like. Crimson might be nice to swap in for spell DMG reduction I suppose. I'm not at all too impressed by Gallant+1, as I really never noticed higher Divine Magic helping with hate, but if you don't have access to Valor, and do have the materials/coins, It won't hurt.

I wouldn't say Iron Will is bad by any means. It just seems too situational, as opposed to Guardian, which kicks in every time you use Sentinel. Regardless, I suppose your merit choices are good. Again Fealty isn't exactly gamebreaking, but I can see it coming in handy in a pinch, and I don't see it hurting you having Fealty and Iron Will, as opposed to 3x Guardian.

[Eaglestrike]

Adaman isn't a bad piece overall. I probably should get one instead of taking out my AF set everytime I tank any HNM's on PLD. For tanking you normally want enmity most and max hp is somewhat situational (any HNM that can do a tp move, that shadows don't block, that takes half your hp at once hp is probably more important than enmity) and so hp+20 and enmity+2 is just a more solid choice, even though in a few ways adaman is the better body. You'll have slightly stronger cures with it and the 1 more enmity, if dying quick isn't an issue it would be the better piece.

For Crimson Scale mail it only has one real use for PLD: Chivalry macro. MND effects how much MP is returned so I'd like one for macroing in (though it's not a huge deal anyway) I'm currently working on getting a few MND items, mostly ones that don't take away my +mp items so I can max chivalry out.

I know you seem to mostly be asking about PLD tanking HNM's, but from 59-75 PLD body should be Hauby/+1. Also, lolkoenig has its use: Rampart macro (vitx2 is damage absorbed) but yeah, otherwise lolkoenig.

[Capo]

i used gallant until i got valor, because adaman is ugly as hell and the difference in performance is minimal

[riddaraan]

If you're an exp PT only - and not merippo - type of tank, sure go for Adaman. But honestly, Gallant is seriously the best piece until you obtain Valor. Well, I upgraded my Gallant to +1, but that was a waste of coins as I got my Valor like, three weeks after. lol orz

Anyway, the 1 enmity on it is negligible, really. Also, I wouldn't do spell interruption rate. Honestly, your merits are far better placed in Enmity Up.

In endgame, in my opinion, you're going to notice very little difference by making changes to your defense & vitality. That's because of a two fold situation. 8/10ths of the time, you'll be /NIN, and getting hit as little as possible. 1/10th of the time, you'll just be getting hit hard, and most endgame shit just seems to ignore your defense, so going for more HP is preferable.

Oh, and the rest of the time, you'll want to tank in DD gear. Remember, to sub ninja is to be like ninja. So attack like ninja. Go.

[Therin]

Crimson Scale Mail is a useful piece if you lack Assault Breastplate for magic damage reduction (the INT and MND actually affect an enemy's spell base damage and resist rates, though the effect is rather low, it does help). Also, it's an excellent macro piece for Chivalry since it gives an additional 40 MP and 10 MND to boost the JA. In some situations it's useful - over all it's a macro piece either way, though.

As for the Gallant +1 vs. Adaman argument - 8 MP, especially with 8 MP merits, will never do anything for you. 99% of fights (in fact any fight except for a low-man in which I may need to main-heal myself, like Jorm) I never go below 100 MP and that's with double Marches (I don't bother with Ballads anymore - with Ethereal Earring, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Parade Gorget, Chivalry and Devotion you'll never need it). Gallant+1 is infinitely better for this purpose, because it offers more defense, more VIT, HP (as opposed to 8 useless MP) and even some loldivine magic skill! The only things Adaman has over Gallant+1 is 1 enmity and 4 MND - both stats you will never notice in day-to-day tanking, especially with your Crimson Scale Mail as a Chivalry macro piece.

As for merits, both Guardian and Iron Will are next to useless. The ONLY decent use for Iron Will that I can imagine is using Rampart on a mob that is hitting extremely fast (with Hundred Fists, or perhaps Triple Attack like Jailer of Prudence or Byakko) in order to attempt to get your spells off faster. With the Sentinel update, Guardian makes such a minuscule difference that it is no longer worth meriting. It's more beneficial to get a fluke resist on an Enfeeble with Fealty than merit Guardian. From my post on KI:

Now, think about the Sentinel job ability: 90-100% (depending on AF2 boots) damage reduction, scaling downward to 40-50% for 30 seconds. This equates to giving you a median damage reduction of 65-75% percent (again, depending on AF2 boots) while Sentinel is active.

Now, if you put two and two together, you'll understand that at the same time that Sentinel gives 65-75% percent damage reduction, it also gives 65-75% reduction in hate loss, simply by definition (due to the hate loss occurring from damage taken).

So, since Guardian is a trait and is only active at the same as Sentinel, that means that your lovely max Guardian merits really don't give you a 57% decrease in hate decay like you think they do, and instead only give you 57% of that leftover 25-35% that Sentinel doesn't negate. This will in reality equate to a 14.25-19.95% (again, depending on AF2 boots) reduction in hate decay, and that's only for 30 seconds while Sentinel is active. Then add into the fact that every single thing you do while Sentinel is active produces more hate than it would before, and you'll see that Guardian is such a tiny bonus that it becomes basically worthless. Hardly worth meriting.

I'd go with Fealty. It's great if you can predict getting hit with a status effect (pop it before Khimaira's TP moves, or on Jailer mobs like Prudence for Stun, Temperance for Petrification while in Blunt mode, Jailer of Love on Earth mode for Petrify, King Behemoth for Stun when rounding corners, Vrtra for Charm when you get to the SMN corner, etc. etc.).

*EDIT* The first time you pop it as Fulmination goes off and resist both Paralyze AND Stun, you'll thank yourself for giving it a shot.

[Ferien]

Putting my two cents in, though most of it's been covered already. The only use left for Adaman Cuirass is in a standard XP party, or as a macro piece for abilities and spells. However, nobody xps in standard pts after 73, so Haubergeon is better for that, and if you're macroing Adaman in and out for the enmity, you're going to spend about half of your time tanking invisible, which really fucks with your mages.

Adaman has never had a place in HNM as a full-time piece, and honestly never will. 20 HP was better back in the days of brick-wall setups, and it's still better now in the days of /NIN and Haste. The 1 extra enmity Adaman Cuirass gives you, compared to the amount of enmity you're wearing in other slots, is negligible, and 20 HP is more useful in your idle set anyway.

Also, I don't know where you get the plan to not sit at 100% most of the time...but you will, and it's a much better idea to do so than not. You can make the argument that it gives you room to cure yourself, but like most of us here, you should be using an HP macro that swaps non-visible pieces to give you an extra 190 HP, allowing you to Cure3 yourself for hate whenever you feel the need to, even if you're at 100%.

As for Crimson, statistically it looks weaker than Koenig Cuirass. It has less HP, a bunch of MP, no defensive stats, some INT/MND, a breath reduction, and it makes you a Dragon. Breath damage is negligible if you're standing in the right place, INT/MND have about the same effect on magic as VIT/DEF do on physical attacks, and a PLD's MP comes from Refresh, not from our base, so the extra 40 isn't helping much. The two main arguments against it are the Dragon thing and, like the argument against Koenig, the lack of enmity. Its use, like a few have said already, is as a Chivalry piece.

As for merits, Iron Will is kind of useless. Sentinel is used to negate magic damage, which doesn't interrupt spells. Your Shield is your main tool for spell interruption, and if you're macroing in shield+ gear when your shadows are down, you're more likely to block than not anyway.

[Churchill]

people let fulm go off?

[Woozie]

As for iron will, put that one merit into gaurdian and go 2 Guardian 1 Fealty. I'm personally 3 Guardian since Fealty turned out to be one of the most useless pieces of shit I ever experienced, but in the opinion of some others, it's worth it to put one merit into it.

[Therin]

As for iron will, put that one merit into gaurdian and go 2 Guardian 1 Fealty. I'm personally 3 Guardian since Fealty turned out to be one of the most useless pieces of shit I ever experienced, but in the opinion of some others, it's worth it to put one merit into it.

It's definitely not useless, you just have to learn to anticipate a monster's attacks.

All of the instances which I listed previously can be anticipated very easily, and in those situations Fealty is immensely useless with it lasting 1 full minute.

[Tajin]

Adaman is fugly. There, I said it. And, dont PLDs go DDPLD these days anyway? (Talking about the 70+ gap, not NMs obviously)

[Dian]

Everytime you tank in Adaman armor god kills a kitten.

[Woozie]

As for iron will, put that one merit into gaurdian and go 2 Guardian 1 Fealty. I'm personally 3 Guardian since Fealty turned out to be one of the most useless pieces of shit I ever experienced, but in the opinion of some others, it's worth it to put one merit into it.

It's definitely not useless, you just have to learn to anticipate a monster's attacks.

All of the instances which I listed previously can be anticipated very easily, and in those situations Fealty is immensely useless with it lasting 1 full minute.

I know it can be useful, I was just frustrated when I found out it wasn't NEARLY as useful as I thought it would be . I still remember how awesome I thought resisting status ailments would be when reading the update notes, only to find out it's a small duration every long time period.

In most fights, it's only going to save you from maybe one ailment? On Khimaira, Fulm usually wont be going off anyways. On something like Cerberus, it would be hard to time it to resist the burn effect on GoH because you have to know which GoH (if any) wont be stunned. If you pop it, GoH is stunned, and your Fealty wears off, you wasted it because the fight will end before Fealty is ready again.

On something like Tiamat, it would be semi-useful if you could anticipate and block roar or terror or something. But Fealty doesn't even block Terror, does it?

On certain other things, it could be semi useful, but not nearly as useful as I had hoped. I've watched others use it for sack pulls or in other strategic ways, but I've never saw any reason for people to put more than one merit into it, if any.

[Brill Weave]

Assault Breastplate.














Bitches.

[Plow]

Would it be good for PLD these days to exp as pld/sam (or pld/war) with gsd? Or merit even? Could probably get away with byrnie and other big +att or +str over acc most of the time, as well as eat meat.