Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Valyana]

The goal is generally not going to be just capping your CE I think. I think that most tanking styles right now are limited to just capping CE, but based on the data it seems to be possible to maintain a good VE and eventually cap it as well.

Yes, in a long fight most everyone will have capped CE: for instance, 25 Cure V will cap a WHM's CE. So tanks need to maintain a high VE balance to hold hate. But I expect that tanking strategy will change so that tanks shift between generating primarily CE or VE at different points in the battle.

RDM/NIN are effective tanks because by spamming debuffs they can build up VE much faster than the -60/sec decay rate. We need to find more of the VE numbers to optimize the hate rotation...

It's interesting that Hojo gives CE but Slow doesn't.

[jerkbox]

pld/war sucked in practice, and now sucks on paper! all ve, no ce.

pld/rdm is the new pld/war? sentinel + spam tons of ce magic for 2x bonus... plus fast cast, phalanx, innate magic defense.. hot

[BRP]

Wait, I don't get how taking hits work with VE/CE. Are they both lost?

[rath]

Thanks a lot Kaeko/Ashira(for the 320 cure 1s). Really nice testing and info. One question though, Would it be ok for me to post this info (conclusions only) on our LS site? I'll be giving full credit to you and BG and links to the site/post.

Edit: For high jump, you could use h2h. Also I'm guessing Super jump takes the players CE to 1 and the wyvern's to 2. Wonder what it does to VE. I'm assuming it sets it to 0 but the fact that you basically do nothing to get hate for another 10 seconds means you'd need more than 600 VE to actually have any VE remaining?

I think we're letting anyone use it as long as they cite/link with the exception of the Wikis that aren't BGWiki right now.

Much of this info is already posted on "other wiki". http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php? ... on=history

[Not Kuno]

Thanks a lot Kaeko/Ashira(for the 320 cure 1s). Really nice testing and info. One question though, Would it be ok for me to post this info (conclusions only) on our LS site? I'll be giving full credit to you and BG and links to the site/post.

Edit: For high jump, you could use h2h. Also I'm guessing Super jump takes the players CE to 1 and the wyvern's to 2. Wonder what it does to VE. I'm assuming it sets it to 0 but the fact that you basically do nothing to get hate for another 10 seconds means you'd need more than 600 VE to actually have any VE remaining?

I think we're letting anyone use it as long as they cite/link with the exception of the Wikis that aren't BGWiki right now.

Much of this info is already posted on "other wiki". http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php? ... on=history

What are you talking about? They dont need bg! They just copy every post.

[jerkbox]

just from my personal experience, aka no substantial proof, i would say taking hits affects mostly ce and affects ve much less or none at all.

a few situations you would see this:

- pld/war tanking just about anything that hits hard and doesn't have the mp refresh to keep ce up. very hard to keep hate on a mob, unlike pld/nin which only loses -25 ce per shadow.
- drk spamming all of his JAs and then the mob mauling him to death without looking at anything else since not enough time has passed for VE to dissipate under someone else's total enmity.
- blms lose a ton of hate when they get hit, since a majority of their enmity is ce-based. it's rare to see a blm get hit for 90% of their hp and a mob continue to maul them, if they survive.

if ve was affected as much as ce, you'd see mobs changing targets a lot more frequently after ve spikes.

[Kaeko]

Thanks a lot Kaeko/Ashira(for the 320 cure 1s). Really nice testing and info. One question though, Would it be ok for me to post this info (conclusions only) on our LS site? I'll be giving full credit to you and BG and links to the site/post.

Edit: For high jump, you could use h2h. Also I'm guessing Super jump takes the players CE to 1 and the wyvern's to 2. Wonder what it does to VE. I'm assuming it sets it to 0 but the fact that you basically do nothing to get hate for another 10 seconds means you'd need more than 600 VE to actually have any VE remaining?

I think we're letting anyone use it as long as they cite/link with the exception of the Wikis that aren't BGWiki right now.

Much of this info is already posted on "other wiki". http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php? ... on=history

What are you talking about? They dont need bg! They just copy every post.

I actually got to talk to the guy who writes "Enmity Numbers" on otherWiki; he actually posted some comments on the blog and I have cited him "Quake of Gilgamesh".

As far as who came up with the numbers first, he was certainly first on most of them - you can easily figure this out by looking at the edit history. The issue with his Wiki post is that he gives very little to no methodolgy on how he got any of his numbers. I was able to get some info on how he did it, and the controls are also a bit shaky - yet he still came up with generally correct numbers. The problem was no one believed him because the way the system works is not intuitive and you would need a very good explanation of testing to have anyone believe you - obviously no one did believe him because they put his post outside the main Wiki article on enmity and left some very wrong theories on enmity (including one of my own...) on there. Ashi and I's was well received because we documented the exact testing procedure so even though some of the things we said sounded off, we had documentation to prove it.

I think this will be an issue later on because of the "war" between Wikis right now...

As far as our information, we both agreed that we wanted to give BG/BGWiki use of this info exclusively, at least for now. Ashira is obviously popular on BG and I see it as a show of thanks for BG helping to popularize my blog over the last year. However, if you want to go strictly on who posted #s first (i.e. who gets the right to post this info)? OldWiki or BG, it would have to be oldWiki - it's just that no one believe him and they banished his info onto a seperate page.

That's just something that may be debated heavily later. Ashira and I were the one's that broke this information I think, yet JKL (the oldwiki poster) actually had a good overview of the system 1 month earlier on oldWiki, but without the documentation and testing. So if you consider the simple posting of the system, he (and oldwiki) had it first. We were the ones that posted the testing to prove this system (ironically w/o even seeing his info, we found it entirely seperately) and broke this to the general community. His numbers were basically useless and discarded until we proved his numbers weren't crap.

I personally cited him on my LJ at least and gave him his credit, even though he graciously said he didn't want to impede. I actually had to pry his server and name out of him, so I wouldn't give him a hard time at all. The implications of this on the BG vs. OldWIki war is up for debate though.

In Summary:
JKL and Ashi&me derived this system with some type of testing completely seperately and without the other's knowledge
JKL posted his findings on oldWIki over a month before Ashi and I posted ours on my LJ
JKL was first to post something, but basically no1 believed him because of lack of testing methodology
Ashira and I did post extensive testing methodolgy and more controls and now people believe this system works
JKL's numbers and posts are now something people believe to be true
No one stole from anyone as far as JKL and Ashi&me

[Correction]

You deserve a hall of fame medal for always putting bolded and concise 'summaries' on all your informative posts :D

You must have written a lot of research papers for labs in school.

[Kaeko]

You deserve a hall of fame medal for always putting bolded and concise 'summaries' on all your informative posts :D

You must have written a lot of research papers for labs in school.

Doing this is just like research in real life except I don't have to spell correctly, and people are more interested in results as opposed to methodology so I don't get grilled as much. I found it quite easy and really not as time consuming as it seems. Much of the posts are simply copypaste for formatting - it's more of a nice mental exercise rather than grunt-work to me, although I'm sure many see it as work.

As far as the summary things, I know when I read something long, even if it's interesting, I want to see a summary. I'm sure just about every normal person is like that as well.

[Kaeko]

My brother just told me about this...

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?f ... =23;page=1

The Allakhazam version of the Enmity Testing thread.

It's on topic for about 3 posts then goes into an argument about ToS and plug-ins being bad...

[Correction]

lolzam

[shirizaan]

Wow. Those wacky Zamtards are at it again.

[Kachi]

The discussion there isn't all that different from the discussion here. Anyway, I started the thread because educating people is generally more effective than lol'ing at them. I would think any intelligent person could appreciate that (not directed towards any individual, just the lolzam mentality that sanctimoniously permeates these forums). I find that the proportion of quality posters is rather similar across sites, having frequented them both over the years. The real difference is in the cliqueness less so than substance.

[shirizaan]

The discussion there isn't all that different from the discussion here. Anyway, I started the thread because educating people is generally more effective than lol'ing at them. I would think any intelligent person could appreciate that (not directed towards any individual, just the lolzam mentality that sanctimoniously permeates these forums). I find that the proportion of quality posters is rather similar across sites, having frequented them both over the years. The real difference is in the cliqueness less so than substance.

How can you say that after watching them immediately derail the thread into "Third party apps are bad! BAD! BAAAAAD!" followed by disputing facts that are clearly established by easy to understand tests? :/

[Kachi]

Though it wasn't the reason I shared the info, it's entirely relevant to my OP. I'm fairly sure the only reason it didn't so much come up here is because the people here have little/no opposition to plugins.

I also can't blame people for requesting a summary or offering conjecture of a rather lengthy LJ without having really read it themselves..

[Ashira]

The discussion there isn't all that different from the discussion here. Anyway, I started the thread because educating people is generally more effective than lol'ing at them. I would think any intelligent person could appreciate that (not directed towards any individual, just the lolzam mentality that sanctimoniously permeates these forums). I find that the proportion of quality posters is rather similar across sites, having frequented them both over the years. The real difference is in the cliqueness less so than substance.

How can you say that after watching them immediately derail the thread into "Third party apps are bad! BAD! BAAAAAD!" followed by disputing facts that are clearly established by easy to understand tests? :/

Alla tends to be a starter board for most players (it was my first FFXI forum).... some just never get beyond it, preferring to be big fish in small pond.

But it is a little strange that there were several people who obviously did not read the results carefully and decided to question it in whichever manner, be it "blind is generally thought to be very high hate but it's only 1 CE so i guess it is not!" or "dispel is not higher hate than stun and flash!" or "should i wait for the next voke before I WS" or "when a spell wears your enmity regarding it decays" or "DID YOU ASK PERMISSION TO POST THIS HERE" or "I will wait to Convert after I Dispel until a Provoke" to I think my personal favorite: Dispel only works if you dispel something, so how can they test the effect of it on a level 0 mob?

I dunno, I guess casting Cure 321x before it turned back around means Dispel had absolutely no effect on Enmity.

It's just frustrating that we can do all this work and Kaeko can document it so well and clearly and it's just too much bother to read fully before making remarks? I don't think I've yet seen a confused comment here like why is Dispel higher than Stun or Flash... people all seemed to see the whole CE vs VE thing and that VE isn't tested yet and these are CE numbers only, etc.

[Deftscythe]

Though it wasn't the reason I shared the info, it's entirely relevant to my OP. I'm fairly sure the only reason it didn't so much come up here is because the people here have little/no opposition to plugins.

I also can't blame people for requesting a summary or offering conjecture of a rather lengthy LJ without having really read it themselves..

Kaeko gives a summary at the bottom of each post, and it's pretty well established that if you try to comment on something on the internet without having taken the time to read it, you're usually going to end up looking stupid.

[Spider-Dan]

The discussion there isn't all that different from the discussion here. Anyway, I started the thread because educating people is generally more effective than lol'ing at them. I would think any intelligent person could appreciate that (not directed towards any individual, just the lolzam mentality that sanctimoniously permeates these forums). I find that the proportion of quality posters is rather similar across sites, having frequented them both over the years. The real difference is in the cliqueness less so than substance.

How can you say that after watching them immediately derail the thread into "Third party apps are bad! BAD! BAAAAAD!" followed by disputing facts that are clearly established by easy to understand tests? :/

This would be as opposed to the mightily superior "someone is stealing your ideas!" posts?

Seriously, all these attempts to try to privatize data about a game that you have no f*cking rights to crack me up. It's one thing to directly plagiarize a post word-for-word, but if you seriously believe that game data posted on this forum can somehow be prohibited from being mentioned at another web site (including, but not limited to, Alla, KI, FFXIO, and various wikis), I have a sizable tract of oceanfront property in Nebraska that you may be interested in.

[shirizaan]

The discussion there isn't all that different from the discussion here. Anyway, I started the thread because educating people is generally more effective than lol'ing at them. I would think any intelligent person could appreciate that (not directed towards any individual, just the lolzam mentality that sanctimoniously permeates these forums). I find that the proportion of quality posters is rather similar across sites, having frequented them both over the years. The real difference is in the cliqueness less so than substance.

How can you say that after watching them immediately derail the thread into "Third party apps are bad! BAD! BAAAAAD!" followed by disputing facts that are clearly established by easy to understand tests? :/

This would be as opposed to the mightily superior "someone is stealing your ideas!" posts?

Seriously, all these attempts to try to privatize data about a game that you have no f*cking rights to crack me up. It's one thing to directly plagiarize a post word-for-word, but if you seriously believe that game data posted on this forum can somehow be prohibited from being mentioned at another web site (including, but not limited to, Alla, KI, FFXIO, and various wikis), I have a sizable tract of oceanfront property in Nebraska that you may be interested in.

Wow, learn to fucking read. Your reply is 100% invalid to anything that was said in the blocks of text you quoted.

[Kachi]

Most people like myself are more concerned with the bottom line, and until the relevant numbers appear, are just making banter. Taking the time to actually understand something is the long way around, which for many people is not worth the effort it takes when it comes to a video game.

Anyway, I'm not here to be a martyr for alla. I just recognize that some people tend to write off alla despite it often having some very good information, sometimes that cannot be found elsewhere. It is not the forum, but the posters that determine the quality of the material, and while perhaps not per capita, there are probably more excellent players on alla than any other forum. People who limit themselves to one forum are missing out, imo. Anyway, that discussion is over wherein I'm concerned. I've said my piece.