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  1. #41
    Ashira
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRP
    I'd like to see some tests with Enmity gear... we could just go with "Enmity" as units really if it's a solid bonus equal to the number or % based.

    We started some one day, but really wanted to get the base stuff under control first; from here almost anything will be much much easier.

    The one thing I do recall; provoke on a decay scale... without enmity gear mob would turn back around with about 4s to go before recast was up.. with +14 enmity gear I got 2s on that... my theory is that decay rate is same, but it spikes higher.. so with more and more enmity gear, layered provokes start building off of what's still left when recast is up and that's why you see mobs turning.

  2. #42
    Ridill
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabz
    I'm sure most of you already saw this but: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Enmity_Numbers

    And I guess they use same base enmity unit since they pretend the cap to be 10k.

    Yeah, came across that like, 2 days ago I think, was interesting cuz it never got talked about here at all, which is why Kae thought he needed to do these tests.

    What's different is that we're offering a lot more information and have all our support documentation for it, and seem to have a lot more on controls for our tests.
    The fraudopedia article was probably just ripped wholesale from a JP testing blog that used a similar methodology to you and Kaeko. Of course, lacking proper documentation and citations makes the fraudopedia article next to worthless.
    So how long do you think before they steal this backup data, too, and apply it to the numbers they ripped before?

  3. #43
    Ashira
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khamsin
    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabz
    I'm sure most of you already saw this but: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Enmity_Numbers

    And I guess they use same base enmity unit since they pretend the cap to be 10k.

    Yeah, came across that like, 2 days ago I think, was interesting cuz it never got talked about here at all, which is why Kae thought he needed to do these tests.

    What's different is that we're offering a lot more information and have all our support documentation for it, and seem to have a lot more on controls for our tests.
    The fraudopedia article was probably just ripped wholesale from a JP testing blog that used a similar methodology to you and Kaeko. Of course, lacking proper documentation and citations makes the fraudopedia article next to worthless.
    So how long do you think before they steal this backup data, too, and apply it to the numbers they ripped before?

    Right now it's "protected" on Kaeko's blog, he pretty explicitly said where he wished it to be allowed.

  4. #44
    Ashira
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Kaeko just posted Part III now, with some numbers.

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/

  5. #45

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii
    Quote Originally Posted by Khamsin
    3) Distance relative to the mob at which an ability or spell is used does not affect enmity gained.
    I've found this to be false. Often times I will run away to Convert (usually about 30 distance) and get no hate, whereas if I do it at 20, I'll get a ton of hate. However, if I do it at 10, I will get the same hate as doing it at 20, so it is partially true.
    Over 30 is completely outside of hate range and won't affect your enmity at all, as any BST will tell you.

    For those who don't use the distance plug-in (or does use radar) -- that is as soon as the mob's red dot completely vanishes from your radar map.

  6. #46
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Thanks for everyone's interest in this. I was hoping to complete part III before sending it to a forum, but I guess Ashira was too excited about it. There are a couple of notes I want to make first about questions people had regarding the accuracy of the testing.

    1) The comment about "evading causing hate loss" - the test actually states it tests whether evading OR getting hit for 0 causes a hate loss. The fact that hate never switched means no loss occurred, thus you can deduce neither of those 2 actions caused a hate loss.

    2) The question of enmity gear effects - Elipse on Odin tested this already and posted his findings in comments on Part II - the majority of players don't read comments though so it's easy to miss it. His preliminary findings found that +1 enmity increases the cumulative hate by 1% with rounding down. Example is Dispel is 320 CE (cumulative hate). Dispel using +2 enmity gear gives you 320 + 6.4 = 326.4 = 326 (round down always). He verified this using other enmity values. I have to run some variation of his test with all the anal controls, but I'm pretty sure he's right. Note that this is for cumulative enmity only, not volatile.

    3) Ashira and I started focusing on spells we felt would have high cumulative enmity, aka the ones people use to tank or try not to overuse. So far, the highest spell is Sleep II at 480 units. This is over 2.5 greater than the CE created by stun or flash. Also, Aspir has a very high CE as well. ANother interesting point was Sleepga and Sleepga II had considerably less CE than their single target counterparts.

    4) Cure V is the same CE no matter what HP is cured. If you cure for 200 or even 0, you still get 400 CE off it. What people have been saying about Cure V has been right - it is static.

    5) We have information regarding the "Cure Curve" or "Cure Formula". I have not posted it because it is not final or formally proven (again, anal controls and weird math).

    RIght now, the best way to go is what VZX had stated earlier. I would prefer to start and quickly complete a database of all actions in the game that produce or reduce CE (Cumulative Enmity). Honestly, for most "hard" things in endgame to tank, this is the value you will want to focus on the most. This is what people are "capping" when they reached the "hate cap". Just having a list to compare all moves with Cumulative hate would be enough to disect the current popular tanking styles a great deal.

    Again thanks for your interest. A funny note... the most unique hits I had ever received on my LJ in any single day was 1050. Today, I got about 1800 in 6 hours and I'm going to hit 3000 easily by midnight... I'm glad a lot of people find this interesting!

  7. #47

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    Kaeko just posted Part III now, with some numbers.

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/
    Awesome.

  8. #48
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Well all I have to say about this...
    to all the curing in the initial tests and what u guys are doing.
    =D> On a job well done

    Anyways, I'm excited what you guys find out. Though when you do get to it, is if the degradation of VE is a consistent variable or not, may it be percentage or an integer (based off ur current information I believe I can do some test of my own except no1 is really all that nerdy or willing to do such things T_T)

    Anyways ur finding has proven to me by basic hypothesis of hate in general, and really makes a lot of what occurs in game see logical based off this information.

    Now I got ideas onto which I want to pursue but lack the people willing

  9. #49

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabz
    I'm sure most of you already saw this but: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Enmity_Numbers

    And I guess they use same base enmity unit since they pretend the cap to be 10k.

    Yeah, came across that like, 2 days ago I think, was interesting cuz it never got talked about here at all, which is why Kae thought he needed to do these tests.

    What's different is that we're offering a lot more information and have all our support documentation for it, and seem to have a lot more on controls for our tests.
    The fraudopedia article was probably just ripped wholesale from a JP testing blog that used a similar methodology to you and Kaeko. Of course, lacking proper documentation and citations makes the fraudopedia article next to worthless.
    On the talk page the guy talks a bit about his tests and methodology. I agree that Kaeko's work is better documented and more comprehensive and so more valuable, though. Nice to see that his CE values line up with the newly posted tests (where there's overlap), too, in any case.

  10. #50
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Can you test how much hate you'd get from, say, 1000 points of melee or magic damage?

  11. #51
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priran
    Can you test how much hate you'd get from, say, 1000 points of melee or magic damage?
    I have a strong feeling that that equation will involve the level of the character and possibly even the mob. Moving to Damage and Cure formulas is a big step that, at this point, I don't think I could test with reliable control controls.

    Also for naming convention, I posted that I wanted to use the terms "CE" and "VE" for Cumulative Hate and Volatile, or just "E" (Enmity) for general hate - this was to be as consistant as possible with JP Wiki and the game's use of the term "Enmity" instead of "Hate". I think "Kaekos" is a bit ridiculous lol Sadly, in the real world this is what people do when they quantify something... Volts, Amperes, "Biot Number", "Avagadro's Number", etc.

  12. #52
    Official THE Alpha and Omega
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Insanely amazing stuff Ashira

    The separate CE and VE caps are interesting and could have huge implications

    This is awesome

  13. #53
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Priran
    Can you test how much hate you'd get from, say, 1000 points of melee or magic damage?
    I have a strong feeling that that equation will involve the level of the character and possibly even the mob. Moving to Damage and Cure formulas is a big step that, at this point, I don't think I could test with reliable control controls.

    Also for naming convention, I posted that I wanted to use the terms "CE" and "VE" for Cumulative Hate and Volatile, or just "E" (Enmity) for general hate - this was to be as consistant as possible with JP Wiki and the game's use of the term "Enmity" instead of "Hate". I think "Kaekos" is a bit ridiculous lol Sadly, in the real world this is what people do when they quantify something... Volts, Amperes, "Biot Number", "Avagadro's Number", etc.
    I would like to suggest Kilonazis.

  14. #54
    Title: "HUBBLE GOTCHU!" (without the quotes, of course [and without "(without the quotes, of course)", of course], etc)
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Priran
    Can you test how much hate you'd get from, say, 1000 points of melee or magic damage?
    I have a strong feeling that that equation will involve the level of the character and possibly even the mob. Moving to Damage and Cure formulas is a big step that, at this point, I don't think I could test with reliable control controls.

    Also for naming convention, I posted that I wanted to use the terms "CE" and "VE" for Cumulative Hate and Volatile, or just "E" (Enmity) for general hate - this was to be as consistant as possible with JP Wiki and the game's use of the term "Enmity" instead of "Hate". I think "Kaekos" is a bit ridiculous lol Sadly, in the real world this is what people do when they quantify something... Volts, Amperes, "Biot Number", "Avagadro's Number", etc.

    What do you mean "sadly"? There's nothing wrong with naming our units after the people who pioneered in a specific area. It's not like the scientist choose to name things after themselves for their own egos. It's that the rest of the scientific community names units after people out of respect for our fellow scientist.

  15. #55
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Priran
    Can you test how much hate you'd get from, say, 1000 points of melee or magic damage?
    I have a strong feeling that that equation will involve the level of the character and possibly even the mob. Moving to Damage and Cure formulas is a big step that, at this point, I don't think I could test with reliable control controls.

    Also for naming convention, I posted that I wanted to use the terms "CE" and "VE" for Cumulative Hate and Volatile, or just "E" (Enmity) for general hate - this was to be as consistant as possible with JP Wiki and the game's use of the term "Enmity" instead of "Hate". I think "Kaekos" is a bit ridiculous lol Sadly, in the real world this is what people do when they quantify something... Volts, Amperes, "Biot Number", "Avagadro's Number", etc.

    What do you mean "sadly"? There's nothing wrong with naming our units after the people who pioneered in a specific area. It's not like the scientist choose to name things after themselves for their own egos. It's that the rest of the scientific community names units after people out of respect for our fellow scientist.
    You're actually right. It's usually other people naming something after the pioneer long after the information has been processed. Didn't think about that - the scientist usually doesn't name it himself.

  16. #56
    Relic Horn
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Threat is what its called in this other MMO.

    Threat per second (TPS)
    Threat cap

    They all sound decent. I'm kind of amazed it took this long for numbers to surface.

  17. #57
    Official THE Alpha and Omega
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezzimal
    Threat is what its called in this other MMO.

    Threat per second (TPS)
    Threat cap

    They all sound decent. I'm kind of amazed it took this long for numbers to surface.
    FFXI keeps it's formulas really well hidden

    Threat doesn't sound right, enmity is a much better word for it

  18. #58
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Priran
    Can you test how much hate you'd get from, say, 1000 points of melee or magic damage?
    I have a strong feeling that that equation will involve the level of the character and possibly even the mob. Moving to Damage and Cure formulas is a big step that, at this point, I don't think I could test with reliable control controls.

    Also for naming convention, I posted that I wanted to use the terms "CE" and "VE" for Cumulative Hate and Volatile, or just "E" (Enmity) for general hate - this was to be as consistant as possible with JP Wiki and the game's use of the term "Enmity" instead of "Hate". I think "Kaekos" is a bit ridiculous lol Sadly, in the real world this is what people do when they quantify something... Volts, Amperes, "Biot Number", "Avagadro's Number", etc.

    What do you mean "sadly"? There's nothing wrong with naming our units after the people who pioneered in a specific area. It's not like the scientist choose to name things after themselves for their own egos. It's that the rest of the scientific community names units after people out of respect for our fellow scientist.
    You're actually right. It's usually other people naming something after the pioneer long after the information has been processed. Didn't think about that - the scientist usually doesn't name it himself.
    Good thing I named it Kaekos

  19. #59
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I like it. Dispel gives a third of a kilonazi worth of hate.

  20. #60

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    This is awesome. So much stuff I've always wanted to know can be ascertained easily now with the groundwork you guys have laid out. Delekii and I are out trying a few things now. It seems that having a buff cast on someone (Refresh, Phalanx 2) when they are tied in hate level with the current target of the enemy will switch the target to the recipient of the buff. Also, it seems that +/- enmity gear and merits act on the same term, so if someone like me with enmity- merits wears the appropriate amount of of +enmity in gear, it is brought into balance and can be used to test reliably. We just started looking at BLU spells, might only get a couple done tonight, but Exuvation's CE is greater than 320, but less than 640, he's going to change to BLM so it's easier to narrow down rather than a ton of cures.

    Edit: Nvm it's exactly 640

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