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  1. #81
    assburgers
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    10,999
    BG Level
    9

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    That is interesting that logging and zoning don't remove hate totally.

    Wonder how hard it would be to test exactly how much hate they do remove.

    Then I wonder if you would have to, as was said, log out to the FFXI top page, a mule, etc.

    What does this imply about character data on the server?

    Very interesting stuff, and as wrong as it is, I too vote for Nazi's/Millinazi's/Decanazi's/etc.

  2. #82

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    From what I read, and I may be reading wrong, it will remove the hate that would have decayed anyway via time and not doing anything, but not the Cumulative hate from curing etc, so you could log back in and CureV a few times and be right back at the top etc.

  3. #83
    assburgers
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Even more interesting, how long do you have to stay logged?

    Be funny to take a mule out to one of these tests, build up high hate and then log it out for like 10-15 minutes, log in, Cure 1, see how many Nazis of hate you have left.

  4. #84
    DEUS VULT
    FITE ME

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    Mar 2007
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Somehow this is the third time I've clicked my way to Kaeko's LJ and said "Oh MAN, look what this guy's found" -- and I finally pieced together that it was from the SAME LJ. I get prizes.

    I'm pretty sure the implications of these tests are more than obvious.. but I'd like to compliment the writing style. The tests are clear, well-described, and very well-presented.

  5. #85
    Melee Summoner
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    31
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    FFXI Server
    Odin

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    please call them kaekos, it sounds so right

  6. #86
    Ashira
    Guest

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...

  7. #87
    Ridill
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    9,732
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    8
    FFXI Server
    Asura

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I always thought if you logged out, the monster had to look for you on the hate list, and if you weren't there your enmity was gone.

  8. #88
    Title: "HUBBLE GOTCHU!" (without the quotes, of course [and without "(without the quotes, of course)", of course], etc)
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    3,141
    BG Level
    7

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...

    I don't know about other servers, but neither me, nor any PLDs I've ever watched tank will use a cure IV if they aren't missing the appropriate amount of HP anyways.

  9. #89

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I'm sure there are some that think because there is a "IV" it means more hate.

    I'm sure they also wear purple armor when tanking HNM's as well.

  10. #90
    Sea Torques
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    617
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    5

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    CE and VE are good measuring units, sounds good and not confusing. So there are possibility to tank with BLU/NIN spamming Exuviation, Actinic Burst and other spells while using +enmity set during the cast.

  11. #91
    23 years old
    Rating: total douchebag

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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...

    I don't know about other servers, but neither me, nor any PLDs I've ever watched tank will use a cure IV if they aren't missing the appropriate amount of HP anyways.
    What woozie said. Sometimes I'll hit my cure IV macor when im missing like 150-200 HP but then I just hit my cure 3 gearswap macro and it puts in an extra 200HP worth of gear, curing me for the full 381-383. Otherwise unless I'm getting a wayward outside cure I'm not bombing my IV's for any less than around the 350 mark for hate.

  12. #92
    Kaeko
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    Odin

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii
    Spells we've tested since:

    Exuviation: 640CE
    3rd party pull, we both opened with a dispel (since exuv is self target)
    BLU cast exuv, on BLU
    BLM/RDM cast 2*dispel, hate on BLM
    BLU cast cure1, hate on BLU
    Exuviation hate is fixed like cure5, it doesn't matter if it cures the target (yourself or party member during diffusion)

    Saline Coat: 1CE
    3rd party pull, we both opened with dispel
    BLU casts saline coat, hate on BLU
    after 5 seconds or so, BLM casts Cure 1, hate on BLM
    BLU cure, hate on BLU

    Jettatura: 180CE
    3rd party pull
    BLU Jettatura > BLU
    BLM Sleepga > BLM
    BLU Cure1 > BLU
    BLM Cure1 > BLM

    Actinic Burst: we only got a range, more than 180 but less than 320 (people needed to sleep)

    Diffusion itself is 1CE (both dispel > BLU Diffusion > BLM Cure1, hate on BLM)
    It directly multiplies the hate of the spell by the number of people it hits.
    3rd party pull, we both dispel
    BLU diffusion > BLM Cure1 (equal) > BLU Exuviation hits 3 targets
    BLM casts Dispel * 6 (1920) > BLM
    BLU Cure1 > BLU

    Personally, I vote for CE and VE

    edit: one other interesting thing - /healing does not add CE. We were sitting at a disparity of 1 (BLU 1CE over BLM). I sat, and the mob would continuously switch between me and him, every "tick" it would face me, and turn back almost instantly. This means that resting gives VE on a tick per tick basis, and the VE gained from healing dissipates before the next tick. It also means that healing does not give CE, since if it did I would overtake him and the hate would stay on me.

    edit edit: more testing on the healing enmity. Since we now know that healing has no CE, it should be possible to reach 0 TE again. Party member pulls mob (Young quadav) with a melee attack. I /heal for a couple of ticks. He warps. Mob stays on me, despite zero CE and zero VE. So once you are on a mob's hate list, you cannot get off it, even with 0 total enmity.
    Thanks for the info with the BLU spells. I suspect BLU will have a lot of surprising results since it's a newer job. Looks like Diffusion > 6 player Exuviation is a pretty wicked way of getting hate to start a fight. It's like 3840CE if you hit 6 players with it, which is over 1/3rd of the hate cap.

  13. #93

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I know you guys have already discussed the units........but I push for hate being measured in units of Ganimans ^.^

  14. #94
    Groinlonger
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Fenrir

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...
    While this may be true about CE, I'd bet you get more VE. Maybe I've been wrong all of this time, but it sure seems that way. I suppose it could be tested though.

  15. #95

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    If curing is a multiplied amount for Y(HPcured) = VE | I don't see how CureIV for 180HP would be any more hate than CureIII for 180HP.

  16. #96
    Ashira
    Guest

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo
    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...
    While this may be true about CE, I'd bet you get more VE. Maybe I've been wrong all of this time, but it sure seems that way. I suppose it could be tested though.
    Cure IV for 0 did the same as Cure I for 0 when hate was even; mob turned to whoever cast last. /shrug

    And as to those talking about PLDs not using Cure IV exclusively... well, sadly, I know PLDs who pretty much... do. Seeing Cure IVs for 250 go off make me cry.

  17. #97
    Relic Weapons
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I wonder how much high jump removes, with and without wyrm brais, otherwiki says 50% with wyrm brais, or some crap.. I guess i could run the tests myself, but i'd need some people who aren't insane to help

  18. #98
    Ashira
    Guest

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey_
    I wonder how much high jump removes, with and without wyrm brais, otherwiki says 50% with wyrm brais, or some crap.. I guess i could run the tests myself, but i'd need some people who aren't insane to help
    Jump would be an interesting one to test. Something else Kae and I can't test personally because neither of us have DRG to 37 for proper SJ level usage (to be consistent with other tests). There are people in our LS we could drag out, but most everyone else falls asleep while we're doing this stuff. ._.

    The other unfortunate thing, though, is that Jump does damage, so it would involve having to use higher level mobs. We certainly want to do other tests along that vein, like trying to determine hate generated by unresisted vs resisted (not no effect) spells, etc; but that makes it much harder to control hate because you will have damage done. So we'd have to find damage formulas first and such... it's really a lot of stuff to consider. :/

  19. #99

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Robber crabs with stoneskin up etc and DRG/WHM who are not 75 and likely to hit for 0 damage?

  20. #100
    Kaeko
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    Odin

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I've started a list of all spells or abilities which we have actions for here...

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

    Only posted actions where we knew 1 or both of the values CE and VE. I'll try to update as often as possible.

    The VE numbers I have not formally posted how those are obtained as I have no personally ran those tests to verify; however, I am confident enough in the testing method to start posting the results - I just haven't posted the exact methodolgy yet. My first goal is to get that list completed at least for the CE values - even if it's 1 (which the vast majority of spells will be).

    In addition, I started citations there as well with players who have contributed data and threads such as this one.

    Thanks for everyone's interest!

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