Item Search
     
BG-Wiki Search
Closed Thread
Page 6 of 52 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 16 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 1024
  1. #101

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I'd imagine for VE you could have one person build a certain amount of CE, then see if the enemy turns for a second after using a spell or ability with known CE, then take the point at which it stops turning, take the known CE of the spell/ability, subtract it from the CE of the other player, and add 1? The only question would be is if it depreciates fast enough that you wouldn't notice it turning in the amount of time the total hate exceeded the other person's?

    Also, on your blog you have Delekii listed as "unknown" server, he plays on Pandemonium with me. He and I had actually been discussing the last few weeks if BLU could be made a viable tank, so we'll probably be testing most or all of the non-damaging spells if nobody else does.

  2. #102
    Kaeko
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,974
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Odin

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suiram
    I'd imagine for VE you could have one person build a certain amount of CE, then see if the enemy turns for a second after using a spell or ability with known CE, then take the point at which it stops turning, subtract the known CE of the spell/ability, subtract it from the CE of the other player, and add 1? The only question would be is if it depreciates fast enough that you wouldn't notice it turning in the amount of time the total hate exceeded the other person's?

    Also, on your blog you have Delekii listed as "unknown" server, he plays on Pandemonium with me. He and I had actually been discussing the last few weeks if BLU could be made a viable tank, so we'll probably be testing most or all of the non-damaging spells if nobody else does.
    I'll go ahead and post here for people that want to see this themselves...

    All spells with VE pool into the same VE pool like CE works. VE decays naturally over time at a rate of roughly 60 VE/second. I have to formally post the test to prove this, but I'm pretty sure it's accurate. You can set up an easy to test to estimate the VE of a spell...

    If you want to try Provoke...

    Have 3rd player pull.
    Both players cast Dispel
    Player 1 uses cure twice (player 1 now 2 CE above player 2)
    Player 2 uses Provoke (player 1 now 1 CE above player 2)

    Given an infinite amount of time, Player 1 will permanently secure hat due to the 1 CE difference.

    Time the amount of time from the use of Provoke until Player 1 regains hate. Then multiply the time in seconds by 60 VE. This will give you a good estimate of VE of a spell or action. Provoke will decay after 30 seconds, so it's about 1800. Note that the whole testing to show the 60 VE decay was not done this way, but they seem to work out with each other. A lot of these tests for Volatile Enmity were not done by myself or Ashira, so we have to redo some of them to ensure accuracy.

  3. #103
    Official THE Alpha and Omega
    Moderator

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    5,898
    BG Level
    8
    FFXI Server
    Bahamut

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    So, how much enmity is generated per damage point/HP regained for melee etc? Is it CE or VE? That info would be great to have.

    It's also interesting to see that, if your 60 VE/second decay is accurate, voke's decay is done the moment it is ready again thus supporting what we've observed for a long time: over time it is a non-factor for hate.

    It also means that dual NIN/WARs might be great tanks again since they can hit the hate cap with ninjutsu and if they alternate vokes every 15 seconds than that is at least 900 extra VE added above cap, allowing a 'cap' of 10900 enmity instead of 10000 and also allowing other VE to act like CE since the voke is going to be the VE that decays instead of the other stuff.

    Just food for thought.

  4. #104
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    891
    BG Level
    5

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxthepenguin
    So, how much enmity is generated per damage point/HP regained for melee etc? Is it CE or VE? That info would be great to have.
    Damage is both, still doing further testing on it.

  5. #105
    Relic Shield
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,524
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Ferien Terzo
    FFXIV Server
    Excalibur

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxthepenguin
    It also means that dual NIN/WARs might be great tanks again since they can hit the hate cap with ninjutsu and if they alternate vokes every 15 seconds than that is at least 900 extra VE added above cap, allowing a 'cap' of 10900 enmity instead of 10000 and also allowing other VE to act like CE since the voke is going to be the VE that decays instead of the other stuff.

    Just food for thought.
    You're leaving out the fact that most of the abilities listed also have VE that hasn't necessarily been nailed down yet via testing. Stun, Flash, and Dispel may also give an obscene amount of VE, and considering the amount of spell spamming a NIN/DRK, NIN/RDM, RDM, or PLD does, it likely puts them above the 900 average VE that Provoke gives.

  6. #106
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    235
    BG Level
    4
    FFXI Server
    Odin

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Here is a post I made on Kaeko's blog today. Might clear up a few questions but please note more testing is needed:

    "Suwiside and I (elipse) were out doing more testing this morning.

    I don't feel like typing everything out exactly after we've been testing for 6 hours this morning but I can assure you we used the exact same testing methodology as described.

    All tests were done with a 3rd party puller. So assume this is the case for all tests. I don't want to have to retype that.

    Things we have verified

    Enmity from melee damage:
    When dealing damage with melee your damage is multiplied by 13.3333333 and added to your E as CE. Its likely more like 66/512 or 67/512. My brain is mush right now. Perhaps someone can put that together for us.

    This was done by first having a player hit the bee with hand to hand. Then player 2 casts dispel to get hate with shadows already up. Player 2 then loses shadows until hate returns to the player that hit the bee. From there player 2 casts cure 1 for 0 until the bee returns.

    This was done over and over with different hit amounts. As with anything there is the possibility of a slight variation due to the small damage sizes. Either way its pretty damn close.


    Enmity lost when taking damage:

    We can verify that when taking damage you lose enmity equal to the damage of the hit multiplied by 1.6-1.66. Somewhere in that range. Unfortunately I couldn't come up with a way to take 100+ damage hits and make test consistant and controled or I would have an exact number for you.

    For this we moved to meriphasomething mountain. We pulled a raptor, then both players used dispel. One player got hit then the second player used cures until hate moved. Due to the need to control the tests using naked players the highest damage hit we were able to do this with was 25 damage before the other players stoneskin would wear off adding complications when that player would get hit etc.

    I'm certain someone can run a test with higher numbers however I'm certain you'll find the range of hate loss hits right into 1.6-1.66.


    Do you lose less hate with +enmity gear on when losing a shadow?

    We can also verify that wearing +enmity gear does not lower the amount of enmity lost when losing a shadow. Sounds like a no brainer, but we still wanted to see if +enmity gear had an effect on the -25E lost when losing a shadow. Even with +20 enmity gear on when losing a shadow we lost exactly 25E.


    Does enmity gear raise the cap?

    Enmity gear does not raise the CE cap of 10,000E. Sounds silly but we wanted to test if it does in fact raise the bar so to speak. It does not.


    How much enmity bonus does Sentinal give?

    Yeah, holy crap. Sentinal gives a 100% bonus to CE during its effect. You CANNOT exceed this bonus with enmity gear. Therefore enmity gear is useless during sentinal because you are at capped enmity.

    This also suggests the theoretical cap on +enmity is in fact 100. However since we'll never hit it, it doesn't matter and we probably can't verify. While we're at it. Sentinal does not have any CE, just creates VE spike.


    Minor note:
    When CE is reduced it does not return to 0. Lowest its reduced to is 1.


    So what does all this mean? Well I'll leave that up to kaeko to put a practical spin on it all. Suwi and I are just providing some data to get this all figured out."




    Also about the whole Cure IV hate thing. I wouldn't write it off so soon. I'm pretty sure the CE is identical to other cure spells however I'm willing to bet it has a higher VE modifier than the other Cure spells. Still until testing is done, no in game play style conclusions should really be made.

  7. #107
    New Merits
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    220
    BG Level
    4

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    First, how come theres one too many posts about people talking about losing hate by logging off/logging on mule etc.? I thought it was said/confirmed long ago that you don't lose any hate(in this case, would be non-decaying hate) when you log off for any reason unless the mob "looks" for you when you aren't logged in.

    Second, if I'm reading this right, it means that stun needs to be casted three times in order to take hate from a single Cure V? This doesn't seem right if that is the case. Can someone clarify this for me?

  8. #108
    New Merits
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    220
    BG Level
    4

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...
    Whoever didn't know this already should quit whichever job they playing that has access to these spells -_-

  9. #109
    Banned.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    15,022
    BG Level
    9

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Oohh, lots of progress.

    I suppose it will be possible to test -enmity song for BRD?

    EDIT: This would look lovely on our wiki(http://wiki.bluegartr.com/Enmity), would ashira or kae like to be the one who make those edits?

  10. #110

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ddong
    Second, if I'm reading this right, it means that stun needs to be casted three times in order to take hate from a single Cure V? This doesn't seem right if that is the case. Can someone clarify this for me?
    Stun probably has as of yet untested Volatile Enmity as well, while Cure V will only ever add 400 Cumulative enmity. In a case of someone stunning and cure5ing at the same time with no other hate, initially hate would be on the stunner, and it would move to the cure after x seconds (apparently VE/60).

  11. #111
    Relic Shield
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,524
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Ferien Terzo
    FFXIV Server
    Excalibur

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    Sentinal gives a 100% bonus to CE during its effect. You CANNOT exceed this bonus with enmity gear. Therefore enmity gear is useless during sentinal because you are at capped enmity.
    o.O holy crap indeed

  12. #112
    Kaeko
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,974
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Odin

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRP
    Oohh, lots of progress.

    I suppose it will be possible to test -enmity song for BRD?

    EDIT: This would look lovely on our wiki(http://wiki.bluegartr.com/Enmity), would ashira or kae like to be the one who make those edits?
    I have no experience with Wiki editting It would probably have to be Ashira if either of us were to do it.

    As far as protected information, I think I had stated in comments (but probably got buried) that BG can go ahead and use the information as I get it. Other Wikis will have to wait at this point until we decide when/if to let them use it.

  13. #113
    Ashira
    Guest

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii
    Quote Originally Posted by Ddong
    Second, if I'm reading this right, it means that stun needs to be casted three times in order to take hate from a single Cure V? This doesn't seem right if that is the case. Can someone clarify this for me?
    Stun probably has as of yet untested Volatile Enmity as well, while Cure V will only ever add 400 Cumulative enmity. In a case of someone stunning and cure5ing at the same time with no other hate, initially hate would be on the stunner, and it would move to the cure after x seconds (apparently VE/60).
    In addition to where Cure V is only the static hate (CE), it's just a set amount always no matter when you cast it and for how much. That is actually why it is preferable to multiple Cures from one person to heal 600+ HP or whatnot (besides the speed of curing that amount, obviously). The Enmity generated with the HP Cured curve would far exceed Cure V's static amount.

    The other huge bonus, however, is the added fact that WHMs have a ton of -Enmity gear, and a lot of -Enmity stats are on gear you should be putting on for Cure V anyway (read MND MND MND MND MND, and NO -VIT GEAR... TAKE OFF THOSE MAHATMA SLOPS, I SAW THAT!).

    We were pretty surprised at Cure V's number though, honestly; I thought it would be less than where it ended up.


    And yeah, BRP, I can do the wiki page; need to discuss with Kae how much of what should be included. Don't want to put up like, everything and confuse people.

  14. #114
    Fake Numbers
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    96
    BG Level
    2

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashira
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo
    On a random note, I did want to say that from the preliminary tests.. nothing specific, but Cure IV has no specific enmity attached to it. It just falls into the regular Cured HP curve. So PLDs, stop using Cure IV for hate if you don't have that much HP lost. It doesn't do anything extra for you.

    Saving MP for PLDs everywhere...
    While this may be true about CE, I'd bet you get more VE. Maybe I've been wrong all of this time, but it sure seems that way. I suppose it could be tested though.
    Cure IV for 0 did the same as Cure I for 0 when hate was even; mob turned to whoever cast last. /shrug

    And as to those talking about PLDs not using Cure IV exclusively... well, sadly, I know PLDs who pretty much... do. Seeing Cure IVs for 250 go off make me cry.
    That might be premature to say, if that's the only test on Cure vs Cure (<Cure5) so far

  15. #115

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse

    Enmity from melee damage:
    When dealing damage with melee your damage is multiplied by 13.3333333 and added to your E as CE. Its likely more like 66/512 or 67/512. My brain is mush right now. Perhaps someone can put that together for us.

    Regarding Enmity caused by melee damage (or by any actions in general), where do -Enmity merits (and gear) come in to action?

    Are they actually a percentage decrease (or increase if + merits/gear) on the CE/VE produced by any given action?

    And my main question, that involves a Lv75 DRK with merited Muted Soul (Reduces enmity while using Souleater by 10 per merit.), I would suppose the MS effect works out in the same way E merits/gear do of course, but then again, does it apply only for your CE or VE actions too during the 1 min duration of Souleater.

  16. #116
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    825
    BG Level
    5

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    So +/-Enmity gear doesn't affect the rate of decay of VE?

  17. #117
    Sea Torques
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    617
    BG Level
    5

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    So ... we should find a PLD with Guardian merited or BRD with Dirge song merited to test the VE/sec loss.

  18. #118

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    How much enmity bonus does Sentinal give?

    Yeah, holy crap. Sentinal gives a 100% bonus to CE during its effect. You CANNOT exceed this bonus with enmity gear. Therefore enmity gear is useless during sentinal because you are at capped enmity.
    Enmity gear with sentinel active doesn't effect ve either then?

  19. #119
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    766
    BG Level
    5
    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrObvious
    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    How much enmity bonus does Sentinal give?

    Yeah, holy crap. Sentinal gives a 100% bonus to CE during its effect. You CANNOT exceed this bonus with enmity gear. Therefore enmity gear is useless during sentinal because you are at capped enmity.
    Enmity gear with sentinel active doesn't effect ve either then?
    It seems like this was only tested for CE, but it is probably true of VE as well.

  20. #120
    Sea Torques
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    617
    BG Level
    5

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    So the way to get best hate is
    - pop Sentinel
    - switch to full +HP gear
    - cure to get double CE

Closed Thread
Page 6 of 52 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 16 ... LastLast