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  1. #21
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Well, most of the reason ToAU doesn't tie in much to the story we've seen so far is because of their isolationist practices. Aht Uhrgan refused to aid in the Crystal War and is pretty much self-absorbed in their own eastern conquests.

  2. #22

    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Many things of the background story surrounding the Ancients and the gods are only vaguely told. When you look at the legends surrounding the Avatars, they often begin like "in the golden age of the Ancients" and then have tales of different kingdoms (like Olduum) and races (like Titans) that don't exist anymore and don't play a role in the Zilart vs Kuulu plot.
    The Zilart and Kuulu were the leading civilizations when it all went down 10.000 years ago, but it is never told for how long they existed, or how and from what they developed. It's safe to assume that other civilizations existed before them though, but it's never told how long the timespan between the creation of Vana'diel and the meltdown was.

    As for Alzadaal: He was an Emperor that ruled the Aradjah continent some time after the meltdown. His empire was technically much more advanced then anything else at that time and he used ancient technology (he harnessed the power of an avatar). Maybe he was a Zilart or Kuulu but it's never told. His Empire was the foundation of the Aht Urghan empire. He screwed it up when he launched his iron giant high into the sky to battle Odin. It blew up and fell to the sea 900 years ago. Since then all Aht Urghan Emperors have tried to revieve the iron giant.
    If you do the "Tuning in", "Tuning out" questline it is told that the god of the dark protocrystal (Odin) once fully woke up, but was put to slumber again by using the Eye of Altana.

  3. #23
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak
    If you do the "Tuning in", "Tuning out" questline it is told that the god of the dark protocrystal (Odin) once fully woke up, but was put to slumber again by using the Eye of Altana.
    Yes, and it also states that [Odin's] slumber is shallower than the other avatars. So the Shadow Lord finds Odin's protocrystal, wakes him, and makes some sort of deal. It would appear Odin gave the Shadow Lord an army of Kindred in exchange for destroying the protocrystal, perhaps freeing Odin and allowing him to go after Alexander. We at least know the protocrystal that was once there was destroyed. Maybe that is our link thus far. We might even learn more about that pact in WotG.

  4. #24
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthe
    Well, most of the reason ToAU doesn't tie in much to the story we've seen so far is because of their isolationist practices. Aht Uhrgan refused to aid in the Crystal War and is pretty much self-absorbed in their own eastern conquests.
    From my point of view that's just the plot-device (or "excuse") through which they try to explain how ToAU plot is so "independent".
    The practical truth behind is most likely because most of the things up to CoP had been planned for long time and foreseen even when the game was in its first stages of life, ToAU was an unexpected expansion they didn't foresee up to until the end.

    Anyway, I think you can clearly see from some early stages of ToAU plot development, how they had bigger plans for it, but in the end decided to stay on something more simple.
    I think as much as I breathe some thin air of "incompleteness", I still liked much ToAU plot. It just doesn't compare to CoP one, depth-wise and challenge-wise.
    But that's just my bare opinion of course, and sorry for this little OT

  5. #25
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthe
    Quote Originally Posted by Zak
    If you do the "Tuning in", "Tuning out" questline it is told that the god of the dark protocrystal (Odin) once fully woke up, but was put to slumber again by using the Eye of Altana.
    Yes, and it also states that [Odin's] slumber is shallower than the other avatars. So the Shadow Lord finds Odin's protocrystal, wakes him, and makes some sort of deal. It would appear Odin gave the Shadow Lord an army of Kindred in exchange for destroying the protocrystal, perhaps freeing Odin and allowing him to go after Alexander. We at least know the protocrystal that was once there was destroyed. Maybe that is our link thus far. We might even learn more about that pact in WotG.
    I'm really looking forward for it, and I really expect lot of details coming about Raogrimm and his rise as the Shadow Lord.

    I Hope SE won't disappoint me

    But still, I get that you guys too don't have a clear idea of what that "Keeper of the Apocalypse" was meant to? Now you would be brought to think it was just a legend created by humans, but then again there is a prophecy from Fenrir, and I highly doubt a being such as him can be wrong.

  6. #26
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Sechs
    I'm really looking forward for it, and I really expect lot of details coming about Raogrimm and his rise as the Shadow Lord.

    I Hope SE won't disappoint me

    But still, I get that you guys too don't have a clear idea of what that "Keeper of the Apocalypse" was meant to? Now you would be brought to think it was just a legend created by humans, but then again there is a prophecy from Fenrir, and I highly doubt a being such as him can be wrong.
    WotG takes place 10 years after the multinational expedition to the northlands, so we won't actually witness the birth of the Shadow Lord. We might get flashbacks though, so anything is still fair game. I'd have to review more of the CoP content to get the full feel for what the "Keeper of the Apocalypse" was really supposed to be. What I do recall, however, is Esha'ntarl's interaction with Fenrir was aiming to change the fate of Vana'diel. Fenrir fated that the apocalypse would one day show itself, but Esha'ntarl believed that humanity could avoid that fate, so he gave her the charge of watching over humanity until the apocalypse surfaces. I need to find that cutscene to clarify that though.

  7. #27
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthe
    WotG takes place 10 years after the multinational expedition to the northlands, so we won't actually witness the birth of the Shadow Lord.
    Indeed, but that doesn't mean that some characters of that time won't detailedly explain us things of the past, or that there won't be any sort of flashbacks
    Seeing events at the very exact second they are happening isn't the only way to know and understand what really happened, don't you think?

    I'd have to review more of the CoP content to get the full feel for what the "Keeper of the Apocalypse" was really supposed to be. What I do recall, however, is Esha'ntarl's interaction with Fenrir was aiming to change the fate of Vana'diel. Fenrir fated that the apocalypse would one day show itself, but Esha'ntarl believed that humanity could avoid that fate, so he gave her the charge of watching over humanity until the apocalypse surfaces. I need to find that cutscene to clarify that though.
    If I recall, Fenrir gives an aproximate age, and an approximate place where the "keeper of the apocalypse" would be born once again, or something like that.
    That's what I recall but then again I saw that cutscene like... in summer of 2005, I might as well be completely wrong.

    I pretty much remind that the game up to a certain point of the plot-development want you to believe that there is someone who is supposed to be the new "reincarnation" or "vessel" for a reborn Promathia, and also many details bring you to think that Prishe is that one, as they call her the "Cursed one" etc.
    Indeed they try to purify her taking the emptiness away from her, thinking that emptiness is only inside of her because of her curse (ignoring there is emptiness inside all of us).

    At a certain point there is another cutscene with... Nag'molada, with some general and interrupted sentences like "You?!? How could you?!?! Then it means you are..." and things like this (not exactely, just an example) that would lead to think that maybe YOU (your character) were the one supposed to be the "cursed one" and not Prishe.


    But in the end, really, if it wasn't for Fenrir I would just think it was a legend created from humans. Maybe, since we saw that cut-scene from Mildaurion's point of view, it's her fault: She misunderstood Fenrir's prophecy thinking that there would have been someone born anew, cursed with being the new "keeper of the apocalypse".
    If I'll find time to get off of my lazyness and see those cutscenes once again before you, I'll make sure to come here and update

  8. #28
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Sechs
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthe
    WotG takes place 10 years after the multinational expedition to the northlands, so we won't actually witness the birth of the Shadow Lord.
    Indeed, but that doesn't mean that some characters of that time won't detailedly explain us things of the past, or that there won't be any sort of flashbacks
    Seeing events at the very exact second they are happening isn't the only way to know and understand what really happened, don't you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthe
    WotG takes place 10 years after the multinational expedition to the northlands, so we won't actually witness the birth of the Shadow Lord. We might get flashbacks though, so anything is still fair game.
    :wink:

  9. #29

    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    I guess you are right about the "vessel" thing. As the Avatars, Promathia needs a physical vessel to step into Vana'diel. His ultimate goal is to open the gates of paradise (rejoin the crystals=Apocalypse) so he can finally die, which was his destination to begin with. The Keeper of the Apocalypse is whatever vessel could be suitable. At the end of CoP missions it's the Zilart King, who went into meditation mode long ago and gathered all the emptiness from the chamber of eventide. In "Apocalypse nigh" it's all the former villains trying to unite as one, to become the next Keeper.

  10. #30
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    So what you're saying is that that big body we see sealed in chains (probably by Yve'noille if I recall?) is the Zilart King who took upon himself all the emptiness/magicite absorbed by the chamber of eventide which, if left "alone", could have created some troubles.
    So he takes it all upon himself and Yve'noille "seal" him with those chains/magics whatever it is.

    But then again, we should watch again that cutscene with Fenrir and Esha'ntarl in hmm... Western Sarutabaruta if I recall. We need to see if Fenrir clearly speaks of a new "keeper of the apocalypse" being born at an approximate place and time (which brings Esha'ntarl to Tavnazia, and individuates Prishe as the cursed child), or if Fenrir speaks in a generic way, and it's Esha'ntarl's fault that she somehow misunderstood what Fenrir told her.


    And once again it's confirmed that theory I made at start. Once upon a time there was a mothercrystal and paradise, with Altana, Promathia and several Zilart happy puppies.
    At some point Promathia goes emo and decides he wants to die xD This would bring some bad consequences to the universe (I have no idea what), so Altana decides to stop him somehow, and "divides" both Promathia and the mothercrystal into 5 pieces, blessing/cursing everyone with this, and generating a new universe and new forms of life.
    The will of promathia, as much as without his original essence and divided, still exists, and the manifestation of the Emptiness (in the far east, or inside crags) is the demonstration that his will grows stronger.
    He wants to reunite himself and finds a vessel, so that he can return to his rightful place and die in peace.
    Well, we're missing some useless details, but more or less that's what happened I guess.

  11. #31
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    But then again, we should watch again that cutscene with Fenrir and Esha'ntarl in hmm... Western Sarutabaruta if I recall.
    The event took place in Saruta, but is viewed in 60 cap/Fenrir/SE Pso'Xja. (Gobbie Footprint is in 50 cap/Carby/NE Pso'Xja.)

  12. #32
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Sechs
    7) The Ruins of Alzadaal
    In some other place I saw them called the "Ruins of Alza'daal", with that ' which clearly points to a zilartian name.
    Do you think Alza'daal was in truth a Zilart that built the ruins centuries ago, using some reminiscence of Zilartian technology?
    Do you think SE had something like this in plan but then fell short on time and decided to cut ToAU plot and make it much more simple?

    This would probably show up if there is a tie-in 'quest' like they did for ZM and CoP

  13. #33
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    If I'm correct Alzadaal fell only 800ish thousand years ago, making it almost impossible for them to be the same Zilart civilization.

  14. #34
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Was it ever concluded who the Olduum civilization comprised of, though? Didn't Shantotto say the Olduum ruins were older than Horutoto? So I guess that would mean Zilart, Kuluu, or some unknown early race.

  15. #35
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    I thought the fight between Alzadaal's Alexander and Odin was what triggered Gordeus (the star) to explode, beginning Windurst's CE, and putting the fight at ~885 years ago. If I remember my cutscenes right, that would make Aht Urhgan and the Far Eastern nation much, much older than the middle land nations.

    Need to rewatch some CS though, can't remember if Alzadaal was the emperor of Aht Urhgan or just the emperor of whatever existed on Aradjiah at the time. Fairly certain though that the technology he used for Alexander had something to do with the Olduum though, of which Ramuh was a member.

    Completely aside from that, I'm kind of annoyed that the Quadav own Palborough in WotG. The mines were Bastokan until a few years after the war had ended, so there definitely shouldn't be any turtles in there during the war...

  16. #36
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    I am under the impression that Promathia's death would not have caused any problems for the world as it existed then. Furthermore I am not entirely convinced that at the time of his death, he actually wanted to die. The game only provides that "However, the arrival of death implacable / brought an end to the God of Twilight." which implies that he didn't go emo and want to die. The next stanza "Aglow with the essence of love eternal, / the Dawn Goddess sought to restore the / lost divinity." strongly lends the conclusion that Altana's reasons were much more selfish: she loved him, and couldn't bear his death. "Upon the fallen deity, Altana bestowed the / light of the true crystal." in order to save him she sucked the power out of the crystal and "used" it on him (somehow). This, however, did not bring him back to life as she had hoped but rather "In the bodies of mortals uncounted was / the Twilight God reborn." And since she sucked the power out of the crystal to do this, "The true crystal shattered into five parts, / its holy light extinguished. / Paradise was no longer. / Thus was born the world of Vana'diel." This implies that the crystal breaking into five pieces was not a deliberate action, but a result of her drawing out its power to try to restore her dead husband (its "holy light" had been "extinguished").

    This could be considered something like necromancy; Promathia was brought back from the dead in a twisted form and against his will. He longs for the sweet peace and rest of the eternal slumber that was stolen from him, and does not care at all for the world that was created so that he may continue to exist. Promathia's death does not portend the apocalypse; rather, the "apocalypse" is necessary for Promathia to die. When all five crystals have been reunited as one, the world of Vana'diel will be destroyed and paradise reborn. As this will kill every mortal creature, the emptiness will be free. It will return to the form of Promathia one last time, and he will return the light to the crystal to finally take his rest. Though in all likelihood, should the crystals be reunited, Altana would probably just do it all over again. I'd wager that this will happen (and probably has happened) again and again, until Altana finally gets over herself and realizes that if she truly loves Promathia she should let him take his rest (so really, Altana is the emo one in this scenario).

    The Celestial Avatars, being immortal gods themselves, would probably be able to recollect if this has happened before. It's possible that they have a plan to actually attack Altana and stop her from keeping Promathia alive (otherwise they'd know better than to attempt to rejoin the crystals, unless they intend to reason with her).

    Of course I could be dead wrong about all of this. But based on the information available this does seem to be the most likely story. Time (and updates and expansions) will tell.

  17. #37
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    1) Radiation from the Mothercrystals through the "filter" of the Crystal Warriors resulted in their creation. Think of it as guided evolution by the ambient energies of the Mothercrystals/Ark Angels.

    2) The Crystal Splitting was (probably) the creation of Vana'diel. It was the original seperation and beginning of the "slumber" of the consciousness of the Sentient Crystal. The Zilart were born from that, but seemingly after the Gods were. Altana might be some fragment leftover of the Sentient Crystal or one of the first gods created.

    3) Emptiness isn't related to Promathia. That's a misconception. The "Emptiness" always existed around the Sentient Crystal, Promathia was just one of the first beings to be "destroyed" (read: absorbed) by it. The light of the Sentient Crystal used to keep it at bay, but when it split, it was no longer capable of doing so.

    4) My guess is, it was originally around where Jeuno is now; that's probably why Kam'lanaut and Eald'Narche took such interest in Jeuno.

    5) He was supposed to take the Emptiness upon himself, die, and thus delay the apocalypse (just as Prishe was). However instead of dying, Yve'Noile told him the truth behind Emptiness, Promathia, and Altana. The Gods felt betrayed because he strayed from his path of Martyrdom and instead sided with Yve'Noile's plan to save Promathia.

    6) It's a Prophecy related to the person who will become the "basis" of the reincarnation of Promathia. I think it was actually Nag'Molada. (if you think about the CS in the Zilart Throne Room)

    7) Reunite the Mothercrystal

    They wanted to make the shards whole again. So they developed an artificial way to reconnect them. That's what the Crags and the "Pipelines" were for.

    Remember that prhase from the Ley?

    "That which has been seperate will become complete and inseperable for all of eternity" or something. They were basically trying to do that.

  18. #38
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    This story talks about the origins of the Olduum civliization. Basically it's about a technologically advanced nation that lived in the eastern parts of the Buburimu Peninsula, though it's not clear if this civilization was the Olduum or not.

    http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/The_Hermit_Ramuh

    yea, I know it's the wiki...If anyone has a better link, I'd love to change it.

  19. #39
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagacious Sundi
    Was it ever concluded who the Olduum civilization comprised of, though? Didn't Shantotto say the Olduum ruins were older than Horutoto? So I guess that would mean Zilart, Kuluu, or some unknown early race.

    Could be Zilart or some other race. The Kuluu built Pso'Xja & the Horutoto. So saying that Olduum were around before Horutoto sort of gives them some middle ground.

  20. #40
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    Re: FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Toksyuryel
    Furthermore I am not entirely convinced that at the time of his death, he actually wanted to die. The game only provides that "However, the arrival of death implacable / brought an end to the God of Twilight." which implies that he didn't go emo and want to die. The next stanza "Aglow with the essence of love eternal, / the Dawn Goddess sought to restore the / lost divinity."
    The way I figured it was that Promathia had nothing to do and was fading away because of the empty-less Ziliart. So Altana gave Promathia a bigger part in life by putting some of his emptiness inside everyone, thus the Ziliart became mortal.

    3) Emptiness isn't related to Promathia. That's a misconception. The "Emptiness" always existed around the Sentient Crystal, Promathia was just one of the first beings to be "destroyed" (read: absorbed) by it. The light of the Sentient Crystal used to keep it at bay, but when it split, it was no longer capable of doing so.
    Don't they call the Emptiness 'The will of Promathia'? I always thought it meant that the emptiness was Promathia's way of making sure that we'll all die eventually.

    I may be wrong, there is a lot of CoP that just went way over my head.

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