FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[Septimus]

Here is my two cents. When Bahamut attacked Al'Taieu, it shifted the city and the mother crystal into another dimension. When Eald'narche tried to open the Crystal Line at the end of RotZ, it brought Al'Taieu slightly back into sync with Vana'diel (or in this case, Abyssea) which woke up Bahamut and kicked off the events of CoP. The final fight in CoP was the players, Prishe, and Selh'teus trying to stop Promathia from realigning Al'Taieu back into Vana'diel.

In the cutscenes in the Hall of Gods, Esha'ntrl mentioned that Al'Taieu should have fallen back onto the planet destroying everything- that the Champions of Abyssea did something to prevent this from happening. And that was somehow forcing Al'Taieu onto Abyssea's moon- they couldn't stop him from realigning it to Abyssea's dimension, but they stopped it from crashing into the planet instantly killing everyone. After this, Promathia/Shiryu was able to call the other 4 mother crystals into orbit around Abyssea to try to reform the great crystal, this is why the sky is always red and you cannot see the sun.

I think that Shinryu freed Al'Taieu from inside of the mother crystal so that it could join with the other 4, the Paradox was on the outside of the crystal, but still over the moon. (The whole point of the original Empyreal Paradox is that you could see the Mother Crystal in it, and it was inside of Al'Taieu, which itself was inside of the Mother Crystal, so it was a giant mind fuck.)

[Odin'sLaw]

My assumption was that Shinryu moved it there to exert a larger control over the moon (and therefore planet smashing action)

you mean, Terra Flare!

sorry couldn't resist the only thing that gets me now is who invented the chess pieces? i might have skipped dialog but i doubt it was our lovely tarutaru Cardian makers

[Hanyoko]

That is a very good question that I too never saw answered (or don't recall). My guess they have something to do with alexander as the Caturae have some control or what not of archaic machines (chariot/gear) which previously were only found inside Alex's corpse.

[Aumaan_Kujata]

I kept waiting for them to tell us that the six Caturae were what became of the six "Heroes of Abyssea" (alter-us) that challenged Promathia and lost (assuming here that they had a full party, heh). No luck, though, and nothing to really support it except the number and the timing. I still like the idea, and will assume it to be true until shown otherwise.

[Souj]

The following aren't plotholes or unclear issues, I just thought this was a good place to ask.
I stopped playing FF11, but I'm interested in some story updates that I either forgot or never heard.

a link to a place where I can find the answers is also acceptable, but I've tried looking in a few places.
Warning:
shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitload of questions!!!!!!

Spoiler: show

Was it ever said who Raogrimm made a pact with to become the Shadow Lord? I remember people saying it was Odin, but I'm thinking that was just speculation.

Promathia: I don't remember what/who he was. He was a god that was infected with Emptiness and then confined to protect everyone? That's what I think I want to remember, but I'm not sure...

How Odin was able to walk around freely.

What the Celestial Avatars would do if they ever got free.

These I definitely don't know cause I quit son after its release; ll wotg related
What was the big blue comet in the sky?
Vague question; what the hell was cait sith and what was he trying to do?
Bandage Face and male mithra; what were they trying to accomplish? Bandage face was an alt version of the guy who killed himself and fenrir using the secret summoning technique thing?
So I know Lady Lilith is an alt future version of Lilisette (at least i think i know...) but how? she just went all emo?
Walk of Echoes/Atomos what is it?

[Odin'sLaw]

The following aren't plotholes or unclear issues, I just thought this was a good place to ask.
I stopped playing FF11, but I'm interested in some story updates that I either forgot or never heard.

a link to a place where I can find the answers is also acceptable, but I've tried looking in a few places.
Warning:
shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitload of questions!!!!!!

Spoiler: show

Was it ever said who Raogrimm made a pact with to become the Shadow Lord? I remember people saying it was Odin, but I'm thinking that was just speculation.

Promathia: I don't remember what/who he was. He was a god that was infected with Emptiness and then confined to protect everyone? That's what I think I want to remember, but I'm not sure...

How Odin was able to walk around freely.

What the Celestial Avatars would do if they ever got free.

These I definitely don't know cause I quit son after its release; ll wotg related
What was the big blue comet in the sky?
Vague question; what the hell was cait sith and what was he trying to do?
Bandage Face and male mithra; what were they trying to accomplish? Bandage face was an alt version of the guy who killed himself and fenrir using the secret summoning technique thing?
So I know Lady Lilith is an alt future version of Lilisette (at least i think i know...) but how? she just went all emo?
Walk of Echoes/Atomos what is it?

Was it ever said who Raogrimm made a pact with to become the Shadow Lord? I remember people saying it was Odin, but I'm thinking that was just speculation.: i believe he died with such rage he became the shadow lord but if anything it was most likely the Jeuno bro's

Promathia: he was the yang to Atlana's Yin


How Odin was able to walk around freely: He was the "living" embodiment of Luzaf the Blackheart

What the Celestial Avatars would do if they ever got free: Diablos would just go back to sleep, Fenrir would just roam around Bahamat would just fly around the skies of his beloved riven, from what some CS's say Carbuncle is actually evil and would be a real douche

all WoTG questions aren't even triable on my part i won't even do them on my new char although jokingly you could say "its meteor from final fantasy 7" cross over ftw

[solracht]

I redid most of CoP and WOTG last year on my new character, and while I can't say I remember everything 100% clearly, I'll try to help.

Spoiler: show

Was it ever said who Raogrimm made a pact with to become the Shadow Lord? I remember people saying it was Odin, but I'm thinking that was just speculation.

This is pretty much said almost-directly during the WOTG missions at Castle Zvahl_S. When Lilith speaks to the Shadowlord, she mentions that they are on the same band and under orders of the same guy (which is Odin). More on this during the Lilith question. The hints had definitely been there all along: the demons are Odin's servants, and the fact that demons and orcs take Aldo's sister to sing that song to the dark protocrystal at the Northlands (to free Odin).

Promathia: I don't remember what/who he was. He was a god that was infected with Emptiness and then confined to protect everyone? That's what I think I want to remember, but I'm not sure...

I never finished the last chapters of COP last year, so my memories on this one are from like 5 years ago. I'll pass on going into much detail, but the Emptiness is within everyone, it's not an infection.

First there was Promathia and Altana. Emptiness is Promathia's will, a manifestation of death. In order to keep the emptiness in check, Altana creates the races as a vessel for this emptiness.

Altana and Promathia are in a different plane, which is/was known as Paradise. It's heavily hinted that trying to reach Paradise from Vana'Diel would destroy the world, as it'd return Vana'Diel to Paradise. This is what the Zilart storyline is about.

The reason why Promathia can be brought into Vana'Diel is due to the chamber the Zilart had, which drained the emptiness from the Kuluu. Apparently enough confined emptiness is enough to bring his physical manifestation to the world, as it's tied to him.

The emptiness is what makes the races mortal - getting rid of it makes you immortal, which is what happens to Prishe when Eshan'tarl uses a small device modeled after the chamber on her. The Zilart did not have emptiness within them, which is why they're immortal.

How Odin was able to walk around freely.

While I don't remember 100%, I don't think the Dark Rider is Luzaf. Luzaf would be turned into Odin when the time for Ragnarok came, so it doesn't make sense for him to be Dark Rider you see running around TOAU (I do not remember this 100% and I could be wrong.)

What the Celestial Avatars would do if they ever got free.

If the Celestial avatars ever woke up, they'd want to restore the world to its former state, which is Paradise. The entire point of the Summoner job is to show the avatars the beauty of Vana'Diel, so that they have mercy upon it if/when they wake up so they don't destroy it.

The poster above confused the Terrestial Avatars with the Celestial ones: The goal of the Terrestial ones (Phoenix, Bahamut, Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos) is to stop the mortal races from reaching Paradise, to keep Vana'Diel as it is. This is because in Paradise, Terrestrial avatars are no more than mortal beasts.

Each of them has their way of doing so: I just explained Carbuncle's way (SMN job). Bahamut's is to wipe humanity, Diabolos is to keep humanity "safe" in Dynamis when Paradise is reached, and I don't remember Phoenix's or Fenrir's.


-----

The WOTG questions are a little messy, because they deal with time paradoxes. While the last missions hint at a neverending cycle where there is no first Crystal War, I think they'll be easier to explain without going into that.

For explanation purposes, imagine an original Crystal War: in this war, the allied forces lose. This will be known as the Lilith reality. Altana then steps in and creates a fake reality where the war ended well for us. This is known as our reality (the Vana'Diel we know).

In the real continuation from that lost crystal war (Lilith's reality), the allied forces are obliterated and forced to look for aid in Odin's strength to survive. Which fits with his nordic Einherjar theme, as the Shadowlord armies are also fueled by him.

Both realities/dimensions co-exist together.

What was the big blue comet in the sky?

Atomos.

Vague question; what the hell was cait sith and what was he trying to do?

The caits (there are 9 of them) are tears of the Goddess, wept during the loss at the original Crystal War. It is revealed in the missions that the Caits open Atomos to go back in time to the original Crystal War, with the intent of having him devour the true reality (Lilith's). This would make the fake reality (ours) prevail and become the true one.

Bandage Face and male mithra; what were they trying to accomplish? Bandage face was an alt version of the guy who killed himself and fenrir using the secret summoning technique thing?

As I was saying, the true outcome of the Crystal War was a loss for the Allied Forces. In the real Windurst battle, Karaha-Baruha can't control Fenrir, and Windurst is burned to the ground in the last assault. Bandage face is Karaha-Baruha from that true reality (Lilith's) who goes back in time with Lilith with his own agenda: helping himself control Fenrir to save Windurst and the Star Sibyl, who he loved. In the WOTG storyline, both Karaha-Baruhas succeed in controling Fenrir and fending off the Yagudo assault.

I don't remember what the male mithra does, but he's a time traveler too.

So I know Lady Lilith is an alt future version of Lilisette (at least i think i know...) but how? she just went all emo?

Like in the other questions: The original Crystal War is lost, and the Allied Forces ally themselves with Odin to survive. Lilith is the child of that elvaan guy (general of the Sandorian forces) and Portia (dancer), and ends up as the leader of the resistance in the true reality after the Crystal War is lost.

Lilith goes back to the Crystal War through Atomos (from the true reality) to have him devour the fake reality that Altana created, and save hers from dissapearing (this is the opposite the Caits are trying to do, as they want Atomos to devour Lilith's reality).

Lilsette goes back to the Crystal War from our (fake) reality to save her father, who eventually dies in our Vana'Diel due to a wound caused during the War.

In the original Crystal War, neither of them has been born yet. The child who would become Lilsette would be born if the Crystal War ended well, and the child who would become Lilith would be born if the Crystal War ended badly.

Walk of Echoes/Atomos what is it?

Walk of Echoes is a combination of the timelines and dimensions devoured by Atomos, and a portal between dimensions/realities. Atomos is an entity that devours time and dimensions. The Caits wake him up to open a portal to the original Crystal War, where a split in realities is about to happen: into Lilith's reality where the war is lost, and into our reality where the war is won.

Atomos is opened with the intent of having him devour Lilith's reality in order to make ours the true one, but Lilith also steps in to use Atomos to her advantage (devouring our reality).

It's also hinted Atomos is actually what the Cait Siths use to create our future in the first place (which means our reality wasn't fabricated until that point), but I don't remember enough to say this is what actually happens.


Egg-or-chicken-first paradox aside with the timelines (which I mentioned at the beginning), I believe that's pretty much it. Like I said, the answers aren't 100% accurate, as it's hinted that everything is actually intertwined (Lilith being the reason the War could end up badly, with us traveling in time the reason the War ends well in the first place, etc), but I think this should give an okay understanding of what happened during the missions.

[Odin'sLaw]

as always "a wizard did it" since WoTG make's ZM nation and CoP stories confused

[Souj]

ok thanks.
few follow-up questions.

Did they say where or how Atomos came to be? or has he just always existed like the gods or something like that.

As for the Celestial Avatars, I knew what carbuncle and the SMNs were doing, but last I knew Carbuncle had no real idea what the Celestial avatars actually would do if awoken. He was just doing it just incase the celestials were going to do it. And I also wasn't sure what the "Waking the Beasts" storyline involved and if it shed more light on the subject.


and yeah... I don't think I'll look too much deeper into WotG story lol
Cait Sith explanation is depressing. I was hoping for something better lol
Time travel/alternate dimensions never really is a good thing to happen to a story.

[solracht]

Spoiler: show

Did they say where or how Atomos came to be? or has he just always existed like the gods or something like that.

Just there (he's an avatar without any kind of consciousness), although he was inactive/asleep until the Cait Siths set him in motion.

As for the Celestial Avatars, I knew what carbuncle and the SMNs were doing, but last I knew Carbuncle had no real idea what the Celestial avatars actually would do if awoken. He was just doing it just incase the celestials were going to do it. And I also wasn't sure what the "Waking the Beasts" storyline involved and if it shed more light on the subject.

I never did Waking the Beast, and I was mostly talking about the Summoner storyline and COP. Someone in COP (may be Diabolos) explains the intents and motivations of the Terrestrial avatars and why they are keen on stopping Paradise from being reached. This would imply Carbuncle was aware of what the Celestials would do, otherwise he wouldn't be doing what he's doing. He'd be doing something else to stop Paradise from opening.

and yeah... I don't think I'll look too much deeper into WotG story lol

It's actually not too complicated/headache inducing if you think of a first Crystal War that happened normally at first (except we lost), but like I said, it's hinted that everything that happens is interwined, and there's no first Crystal War - it's the actions from people who come from future realities that make events fall in place to begin with (but they don't realize this until the end), which causes their futures to be formed in the first place. It's always possible I remember this part wrong.

[Yubar]

You know, I've also been wondering about Odin in certain parts.

Spoiler: show

We all know Luzaf makes a pact with Odin, but the thing is that happens 200 years before ToAU and during that time Odin is locked in his protocrystal. So, how can Odin show up right when Luzaf makes his pact with Odin before Luzaf's death even though Odin is all the way in Uleguerand in his protocrystal?

[Cantih]

Spoiler: show

I don't remember what the male mithra does, but he's a time traveler too.

Spoiler: show

Correction, he's not a time traveler, just a native who Lilith's Karaha-Baruha confided in. At least, I'm pretty sure, the only time travelers are you, Lilisette, technically the Caits, & Lilith and her Spitewardens (including the rogue Karaha-Baruha).
The male mithra's story is a build on of Mithran homeland lore.

Spoiler: show

it's hinted that everything that happens is interwined, and there's no first Crystal War - it's the actions from people who come from future realities that make events fall in place to begin with (but they don't realize this until the end), which causes their futures to be formed in the first place. It's always possible I remember this part wrong.

Spoiler: show

I think you are. The Crystal War always starts because,
1. The Beastmen are at odds with the five races.
And
2. Ulrich attempting to murder Raogrimm during the northlands expedition, Cornelia taking the blade, and fueling Raogrimm's rage and desire for vengeance.
All of that, and Raogrimm becoming the Shadow Lord and starting the war, happens before any time travelers show up. Set in stone, as it were

Spoiler: show

even though Odin is all the way in Uleguerand in his protocrystal?

Spoiler: show

From what I understand, Odin (and Alexander) don't have protocrystals, or, they haven't been shown at least. The northlands are the domain of Diablos. Incidentally, until WotG brought out the Shadow Lord & Odin thing, due to Dynamis, I always thought it was Diablos that turned Raogrimm.

[Plow]

a little alongside stuff from a longtime smn nerd

Spoiler: show

First, as to "who is promathia," he and altana are basically brother and sister, twins so to speak. Altana is the Goddess of birth and life, Promathia that of sleep and death.

I never finished the last chapters of COP last year, so my memories on this one are from like 5 years ago. I'll pass on going into much detail, but the Emptiness is within everyone, it's not an infection.

First there was Promathia and Altana. Emptiness is Promathia's will, a manifestation of death. In order to keep the emptiness in check, Altana creates the races as a vessel for this emptiness.

Altana and Promathia are in a different plane, which is/was known as Paradise. It's heavily hinted that trying to reach Paradise from Vana'Diel would destroy the world, as it'd return Vana'Diel to Paradise. This is what the Zilart storyline is about.

The reason why Promathia can be brought into Vana'Diel is due to the chamber the Zilart had, which drained the emptiness from the Kuluu. Apparently enough confined emptiness is enough to bring his physical manifestation to the world, as it's tied to him.

Not... exactly. Close, though. What's her name absorbed all that shit, but... fucking can't remember his name either, the main jeuno douchebag that ends up basically accidentally saving everything, but anyway he wants to get it drained from him, and basically sets everything up for it to create a new entity, because said whatserface and the people that built the chamber hid from everyone the true reality that it had to be contained in someone.

If the Celestial avatars ever woke up, they'd want to restore the world to its former state, which is Paradise. The entire point of the Summoner job is to show the avatars the beauty of Vana'Diel, so that they have mercy upon it if/when they wake up so they don't destroy it.

To put it simply, they want to start over, reuniting with paradise, destroying Vana'Diel in the process.

The poster above confused the Terrestial Avatars with the Celestial ones: The goal of the Terrestial ones (Phoenix, Bahamut, Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos) is to stop the mortal races from reaching Paradise, to keep Vana'Diel as it is. This is because in Paradise, Terrestrial avatars are no more than mortal beasts.

It's to stop it, period, no matter who it is. Bahamut's solution is at odds with Phoenix's for 2 reasons: Phoenix is willing to sacrifice herself no matter what being the primary one.

The thing about Bahamut, though, is basically this:
The mortals aren't going to pull shit off. They're not strong enough (at least in Bahamut's mind) to manage to reunite Vana and paradise. Promathia, however, is... but there's a catch. He has to use the mortal races to accomplish it.

So, of course, Bahamut's solution is to destroy the mortal races so that he can't. Phoenix, however, has faith that between the mortals and her own sacrifice, we can win.

Each of them has their way of doing so: I just explained Carbuncle's way (SMN job). Bahamut's is to wipe humanity, Diabolos is to keep humanity "safe" in Dynamis when Paradise is reached, and I don't remember Phoenix's or Fenrir's.

It's not even nearly that simple, each of them has their own powers, and uses them as they see fit to maintain their own standing. Bahamut's general goal in life is not to destroy humanity, or at least hasn't always been.

[solracht]

I'm glad other people posted!

Cantih

Spoiler: show

I just reread stuff about the male mithra, and that's absolutely correct. My first thought was of him being a time-traveler because he knows what's up with you and the taru (but he's not a time traveler himself).

I think you are. The Crystal War always starts because,
1. The Beastmen are at odds with the five races.
And
2. Ulrich attempting to murder Raogrimm during the northlands expedition, Cornelia taking the blade, and fueling Raogrimm's rage and desire for vengeance.
All of that, and Raogrimm becoming the Shadow Lord and starting the war, happens before any time travelers show up. Set in stone, as it were

Sorry for not being clear. When I said "events falling in place" I meant within the Crystal War. While the Crystal War starts without the influence from time travelers, it's hinted that there's no first, undisturbed Crystal War that simply ends up badly for us. The Crystal War itself is always influenced by the time travelers (like in a "correct" time traveling paradox, if there's one).

I just thought the WOTG storyline would be easier to understand if we used a first, original Crystal War that develops without any kind of external influence. Still, I felt the need to point out that the storyline hints at this not being the case.

Plow:

Spoiler: show

Not... exactly. Close, though. What's her name absorbed all that shit, but... fucking can't remember his name either, the main jeuno douchebag that ends up basically accidentally saving everything, but anyway he wants to get it drained from him, and basically sets everything up for it to create a new entity, because said whatserface and the people that built the chamber hid from everyone the true reality that it had to be contained in someone.

Either Yve'noile or the Zilart King (I forget which) keep all the emptiness within them in the Celestial Capital in order to stop the extracted emptiness in the chamber from becoming Promathia. Nag'molada (who learns this truth after getting there) then heads to the Throne Room and breaks the seal.

[Plow]

Plow:

Spoiler: show

Either Yve'noile or the Zilart King (I forget which) keep all the emptiness within them in the Celestial Capital in order to stop the extracted emptiness in the chamber from becoming Promathia. Nag'molada (who learns this truth after getting there) then heads to the Throne Room and breaks the seal.

Spoiler: show

Yve'noile is the one that contains it in herself, and she's basically in a slumber. As I understood it, Nagmolada (who's the one I couldn't remember earlier) didn't know that until he got there, he just thought that if he got access to sea, he'd be able to use the machine on himself and become a Zilart.

[Fereydoon]

Spoiler: show

From what I understand, Odin (and Alexander) don't have protocrystals, or, they haven't been shown at least. The northlands are the domain of Diablos. Incidentally, until WotG brought out the Shadow Lord & Odin thing, due to Dynamis, I always thought it was Diablos that turned Raogrimm.

Spoiler: show

Odin's protocrystal is shown at least once, during the CoP cutscenes in Bearclaw Pinnacle, it resided there but it was destroyed sometime after the Shadow Lord rose to power, I want to say Odin had him, or someone else, do it so he can go off and fight Alexander.

As for Alexander I don't think we've ever seen a crystal for him, but iirc he "died" around the time tarus settled at windurst? iirc his star, Gordeus, supernova'd or some such, which is what Taru marked as the start of the calendar? It might be why he's kinda floating around without a body, and needs to inhabit the colossus/Nyzul to exist. But the people who inhabited Alzaldaal are older than that, aren't they? We never do get that much information about them.. Maybe they declined shortly after? Or died out as a result of his destruction? Alexander fought Odin or the remnants just broke down or something? Cause the remnants were definitely a body for Alexander at some point.

[Cantih]

Spoiler: show

Odin's protocrystal is shown at least once, during the CoP cutscenes in Bearclaw Pinnacle, it resided there but it was destroyed sometime after the Shadow Lord rose to power, I want to say Odin had him, or someone else, do it so he can go off and fight Alexander.

As for Alexander I don't think we've ever seen a crystal for him, but iirc he "died" around the time tarus settled at windurst? iirc his star, Gordeus, supernova'd or some such, which is what Taru marked as the start of the calendar? But the people who inhabited Alzaldaal are older than that, aren't they? We never do get that much information about them.. Maybe they declined shortly after?

Spoiler: show

iirc, the people who built Alzaldaal were the Olduum. And yes, it was very long ago, but if the first Alexander/Odin brawl happened in time with Gordeus going supernova, and that matches the Taru calender it means that is was still nowhere near as long ago as the Zilart meltdown brouhaha.

And that's part of why I'm not on board with Odin being based in the northlands. The Zilart's Fei'Yin and the Kuluu's Pso'Xja are up there, they were clearly involved in the area, but Odin has no presence in their history.

I'll need to re-watch the CoP stuff up there though when the game is back on. I was planning to anyway, along with THF AF CS's. I'm doing the San d'Oria nation missions and need to get the whole Vauderame/Louverance/Atarefaunat thing sorted out.

[Souj]

as for Alexander/Odin stuff, as far as I remember;

The very last time Alex and Odin fought was the cause of some cataclysmic event. That event was marked by the Taru as the start of the calendar. and also, during that fight, I'm pretty sure Alexander's body was the entire Alzadaal construct. That part could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure someone at some point built Alzadaal for that purpose.

[Cantih]

No, you're right, Alzadaal is (well, was) a gigant-o-fucking Alexander.

[ronin sparthos]

Hm, was Zogbog (WOTG sandy Orc) not a time traveler?