Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Kaisha]

You sure about that? ('cause I don't recall curaga giving you less enmity per hp cured than cure does)

Or are you just going off a feeling?

For me, it's off a feeling (haven't been keeping up with the rest of the thread, sorry), but me tossing Acc-Cure3 ganked a shitload more hate than what I'd have expected, as if I casted 6 individual cure3s, including their base-emnity just from casting the spell.
(unless there isn't a base-hate for the Cure spells, as to which the feeling was just a feeling)

Either that or the tank was shitty, the whole PT couldn't pull the damn mob off of me when I used...

Curaga2 isn't an option yet at my level (46) unfortunately.

[Genosync]

If you'd pull hate with Accession cureIII, you'd pull hate with curaga.

[Koyangi]

You sure about that? ('cause I don't recall curaga giving you less enmity per hp cured than cure does)

Or are you just going off a feeling?

For me, it's off a feeling (haven't been keeping up with the rest of the thread, sorry), but me tossing Acc-Cure3 ganked a shitload more hate than what I'd have expected, as if I casted 6 individual cure3s, including their base-emnity just from casting the spell.
(unless there isn't a base-hate for the Cure spells, as to which the feeling was just a feeling)

Either that or the tank was shitty, the whole PT couldn't pull the damn mob off of me when I used...

Curaga2 isn't an option yet at my level (46) unfortunately.

By the time you cast 6 cure 3's, enmity would have diminished from previous casts, so the instant hate from Acc. Cure3 all at once is greater than what your total +enmity is after casting the 6th Cure3(back to back).

[Damane]

By the time you cast 6 cure 3's, enmity would have diminished from previous casts, so the instant hate from Acc. Cure3 all at once is greater than what your total +enmity is after casting the 6th Cure3(back to back).

thinking logical of the enmity test thread we had recently here. its actually the same hate that doesnt fade over time. the only difference is that with back to back cures the tank has some time left to build up hate, where as with Acc. cure3 the tank doesnt have the time to build up the hate.
he would have probably pulled hate also with curraga II (which is equivalent to Acc. Cure 3 kind of by the cured amount)

I wouldnt mind SE makeing SCH a "tickovertime" master in the healing or magic attack or buffing/debuffing department.
Adding the elemental debuff line 1 and adding the tier 2 of the elemental debuffs
regen III and *gasp* maybe regen IV
refresh and *gasp* maybe refresh II (dont ask me now for the amount)
and perhaps regain would make up for the fact of haveing not strong helix spells, no stoneskin, blink, haste, tier IV nuke and no enfeeb spells.

[Valkrish]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted on this.

You can cure-pro-shell accession any party formed not in your own alliance.

I was having fun at Cerberus and accidentally found out i can pull hate when not in the ally with DS Cure IV O_o

Now the interesting question.

If someone forgets Blockaid, and they're fighting a Wyrm, and you DS Cure IV them, and Accession their party, does the CIV hit everyone?

GO GO SCHOLAR IN AERY DRAMA!

Yes, this works.

[Max™]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted on this.

You can cure-pro-shell accession any party formed not in your own alliance.

I was having fun at Cerberus and accidentally found out i can pull hate when not in the ally with DS Cure IV O_o

Now the interesting question.

If someone forgets Blockaid, and they're fighting a Wyrm, and you DS Cure IV them, and Accession their party, does the CIV hit everyone?

GO GO SCHOLAR IN AERY DRAMA!

Yes, this works.

Epic.

I can see Scholars being the new HNM hitmen, like Bst back in the glory days.

[Delekii]

[quote=Max™]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted on this.

You can cure-pro-shell accession any party formed not in your own alliance.

I was having fun at Cerberus and accidentally found out i can pull hate when not in the ally with DS Cure IV O_o

Now the interesting question.

If someone forgets Blockaid, and they're fighting a Wyrm, and you DS Cure IV them, and Accession their party, does the CIV hit everyone?

GO GO SCHOLAR IN AERY DRAMA!

Yes, this works.

Epic.

I can see Scholars being the new HNM hitmen, like Bst back in the glory days.[/quote:1o60mgx4]
I hope LD doesn't read this, but you can also do this with diffusion Some fucking arseholes took a KV off our holding party a while back when it went white for a second, and I got it back by having a pt member cure their nin once, I cured the pt member, then diffusion>exuv and took off in the opposite direction. It went white again very quickly.

[Genosync]

[quote=Delekii]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted on this.

You can cure-pro-shell accession any party formed not in your own alliance.

I was having fun at Cerberus and accidentally found out i can pull hate when not in the ally with DS Cure IV O_o

Now the interesting question.

If someone forgets Blockaid, and they're fighting a Wyrm, and you DS Cure IV them, and Accession their party, does the CIV hit everyone?

GO GO SCHOLAR IN AERY DRAMA!

Yes, this works.

Epic.

I can see Scholars being the new HNM hitmen, like Bst back in the glory days.

I hope LD doesn't read this, but you can also do this with diffusion Some fucking arseholes took a KV off our holding party a while back when it went white for a second, and I got it back by having a pt member cure their nin once, I cured the pt member, then diffusion>exuv and took off in the opposite direction. It went white again very quickly.[/quote:1ql98twg]

um

you obviously don't understand what we're talking about.

That's a simple, get hate back by doing actions on yourself after doing an action on someone with enmity on the mob issue.

This is a one shot, needs no other actions issue.

Scholar uses Light Arts.
Scholar uses Accession.
Scholar uses Divine Seal.
Scholar uses Rapture.
Scholar starts casting Cure IV on noob in PT without blockaid.
Scholar casts Cure IV.
no blockaid noob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.

yeah, it's a little different.

[shukuffxi]

Wouldn't all those PT members need to be at like ~200HP max, to be cured for that much, and get all that hate? If they're all at full HP or nearly, it won't give more hate than say a Curaga, or at most, a Curaga II.

[Delekii]

you obviously don't understand what we're talking about.

That's a simple, get hate back by doing actions on yourself after doing an action on someone with enmity on the mob issue.

This is a one shot, needs no other actions issue.

Scholar uses Light Arts.
Scholar uses Accession.
Scholar uses Divine Seal.
Scholar uses Rapture.
Scholar starts casting Cure IV on noob in PT without blockaid.
Scholar casts Cure IV.
no blockaid noob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.
partymemberofnoob recovers 1100hp.

yeah, it's a little different.

I count 5 actions there, as well as relying on multiple people to be seriously lacking in hp

not to mention, unless they do something stupid they still wont lose claim, and they will be up 1100hp per party member.


Scholar uses Light Arts.
Scholar uses Accession.
Scholar uses Divine Seal.
Scholar uses Rapture.
Scholar starts casting Cure IV on noob in PT without blockaid.

BLU/WHM casts Cure on noob in PT without blockaid.
BLU/WHM uses Diffusion.
Blue/WHM casts Exuviation.

Anyway, I didn't say it to start an argument, but was just saying that there has been a replacement of the mazurka bard turning mobs since SE released diffusion, it's just that no-one does it.

[Suiram]

I don't see either one of those working well enough to take hate on something another alliance is actively fighting through one use alone, although holding on something like KV is a bit different. Plus in the scholar's case, since you can't control how much HP the party you're curing has, you'd probably be a more effective MPKer if your own party got hate after your first action so they took AoE damage and then you just cure them instead of hoping that your target doesn't put blockaid up after the first one, but in that case what are you doing that a WHM can't do with Curaga, besides the initial head start you'd get from the Curaga on the party that you're trying to MPK?

[Kaeko]

I don't want to start like a how to guide on MPKing at fafhogg but if you want to compare which is a better MPK tool, BLU is going to win on this one.

As some1 mentioned earlier, you have to actulaly cure HP to get hate off Cure IV. Exuviation hate is static. Also, when you use Diffusion, Exuviation, I don't think anyone mentioned this, but the other 5 people you use diffusion on have to be on the hate list too. This isn't too hard... they can just cure the BLU for 0 HP to get on the hate list once the BLU is on it.

As far as pulling hate, there is a full cure formula online for LVL75 characters (that is the person being cured is LVL75). It's only a rough but pretty accurate.

CE = 0.7275 * HP Cured
VE = ~4.4 * HP Cured (this is specific to Cure IV)

Diffusion Exuviation is just straight 3840 CE, 3840 VE. While you could theoredically get more hate than 7680 TE with an accession cure IV on main alliance, that would require about 1500 HP cured. You might get this right after a bad wing MAYBE. It's also mostly VE and will go away quickly if you don't immediately pull hate.

As far as the question of could you actually pull hate off a tank using any type of MPK quick hate tactic, this depends on the tank you're trying to yank it off of. I know a lot of pretty mediocre tanks on Odin that cannot cap VE. They are pretty much at 10000 CE maximum and tank on CE. This means they cannot break the -3600 VE/min decay, so they're total hate is about 10,000-13,600. If you can break 13,600 TE in 1 action, I'm pretty sure you could take hate. Well, BLU/PLD can easily do this (Sentinel doubles hate basically, +100 enmity).

Get all 6 people in BLU's PT on hate list >> BLU Sentinel (1000VE) >> BLU Diffusion >> BLU Exuviation (7680CE,7680VE)

This will produce about 7680CE and 8680VE in 10 seconds and will break any average tank tanking on primarily CE.

If your tanks are able to cap both CE and VE, then I think you're pretty safe. The reasoning behind this is in order to cap VE, you have to perform CONSTANT actions to break decay rate. Since the BLU is unable to target the mob, its really hard to spam constant VE gaining actions.

I'd say if you're using a NIN/DRK, you're definitely safe since this tanking job has the easiest to use high VE gainers. PLD/NIN when played half way decently is also safe from this type of MPK. A RDM/NIN that does not focus their spell rotation on Blind may have issues I think. PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR not meleeing... yea this MPK will work 100% I'm sure.

EDIT: nvm, there is a sure fire way to at least get Fafhogg to look at you.

Get everyone on the hate list, have the BLU build some CE... This isn't too hard. Haste the BLU/PLD, and have him use a couple of Exuviations. Once CE is about 4,000 (won't go away, takes about 5-6 exuviations if you didn't get hit with wing too hard), perform the actions where you Sentinel and Diffusion, etc. This will cap your CE, so you're just looking at VE now. You get 8680VE off the base actions. You're basically just 1,400VE from the perfect hate cap designated by the game. If ANYONE ever hits this perfect hate, they MUST pull hate since if you are equal in hate, the most recent person to reach this state gets hate (assuming same distance). If you use like Reactor Cool after this (480VE, but actually 960VE since you're in Sentinel), you'll be about 400 from cap. At this point, almost anything will work, like curing someone, some other BLU self buff, etc.

Or, even easier, put a COR in the same PT as the BLU/PLD. After you use Sentinel, Diffusion, Exuviation once, Wild Card and DIffusion will be up again 100%. Repeat and you're instantly capped for CE and VE, and Fafhogg must turn to you.

[Kaeko]

Going to try to get this back on topic...

I dinged 74 SCH today basically off entirely solo or in 2-3 man parties (manaburn). I got 74 doing Ix'DRK actually.

All these were on SCH/RDM

Was doing 102 Cryohelices consistently on Ix'DRK. I wasn't using Elemental gear, just the +10 from staff (and full elemental merits). This was without weather or day buffs. I think that's pretty good since you generally get 6 ticks + the initial damage, so that's 714 damage for 79 MP. Ebulliance would make it 122 initial or 854 total. The casting time was also short enough using SCH/RDM that I could get the spell off by timing its nukes (i.e. immediately stopping to cast when it casts). I can get it off w/o relying on its casting if I use Alacrity with it. Aspirs and Drains were also doing surprisingly well.

The Qn'Aern adds are really really easy to seperate with a SCH/RDM... When everything pops, you can just Graviga everything. The Qn'Aerns don't resist it, but the Ix'DRK will. At this point, make way for the zone. The 2 will seperate enough that once you zone back, they will be far apart enough to pick the Ix'DRK up without linking the Qn'Aern RNGs. If you do this, you have to fight in the main room though. I always fight in main room (which is very safe if you know how to use the pillars), but I know most like to fight in a square room; I'm not sure how you'd do this solo (the pull) if you wanted it in that room. Duo this is very easy obviously though.

I'm at about +61 INT from gear (at 74)...

Staff: Elemental Staves
Sub: Bugard Strap +1
Head: Mahatma hat
Body: Mahatma Hpl.
Hands: Mahatma Cuffs
Legs: Mahatma Slops
Feet: Yigit Crackows
Back: Prism Cape
Waist: Penitent's Rope
Neck: Enlightened Chain
Ring1: Tamas Ring
Ring2: Genius Ring
Ear1: Abyssal Earring
Ear2: Moldavite Earring
Ammo: Phantom Tathlum

I also tried SCH/RDM out in Einherjar on Friday (was just 71 then). Graviga is really impressive in this... I was having some resist issues at this level so when I would graviga 12 things, maybe 2-3 would resist. I think at 75 this won't be such a big issue. My enfeebling merits aren't maxed either. There is enough room to manuveur such that BRDs or BLMs can be given a precious 2-3 seconds to get a sleep move off without getting hit. AOE Bind also works pretty well. Unfortunately, Silencga doesn't work... which I think is a huge oversight by SE.

Overall, I think SCH has a great deal of promise. It's borderline viable right now with really good gear, but I'm hoping with AF1, Merits 1, Merits 2, and maybe some extra gear sets, it will be a good endgame job. It has some unique solo potential I hope to work with too after 75. Helices have a really great damage / MP ratio, in addition to a good casting time.

Also, the tip that makes this job bearable for me: Use the "Blink" tactic when using any of your JAs on this job. The animations are so damn long. They look really cool but that's probably not what you'll be thinking after you try using this and basically "Bind" yourself for 2 seconds with a mob chasing you. Swap gear out before using any JA and you will avoid this 99% of the time. This job would be nearly unbearable to me without this.

Issues I personally had:

1) Unable to use Silencga... I'm sorry but WTF is with this? You can argue the whole its a light spell thing but I think it's an excuse...

2) Strategems recast is a tad long. I can't even use 1 per mob while soloing non-BST pets. How is SCH supposed to be an ability based job when you can't even use it once per fight soloing? I've soloed to 74 thusfar and the abilities SCH gains are pretty much reserve bail out moves for me. I'll usually save them for Graviga>bailout zone or Alacrity for quick kill if gravity wears.

3) Ebullience effect is only 20%. That's a bit weak for something you can only use every 4 minutes. I was hoping for like a mini-elemental seal effect... it's just damage though.

4) Weather spells... nice idea, horrible in practice. If you EVER hear some SCH saying how cool these are, ask them if they've ever tried to buff an entire PT with it. I tried this just to test it out, despite already knowing it was impossible using basic math. 2 minute recast with 2 minute duration... If you use Accession with this, it's 2 minute duration and 4 minute recast. That's the first problem. If you fix this, then the fact it's 2 minute duration and accession is 4 minute recast also makes this impossible. Great idea, terrible in practice beyond buffing 1, or possibly 2 people. Coolness factor doesn't help in the long run.

5) Gear, or lack there of. Was mentioned earlier that a SCH could not function as a DD at nidhogg becuase of resists. I think updates will naturally fix this though. I'm thinking mainly elemental, enfeebling, and dark magic skill gear.

6) Light Arts and Dark Arts "status" looks the same. It's really confusing in the heat of a fight sometimes. At least make these 2 distiguishable.

7) Light Arts and Dark Arts have 1 minute recasts. This may seem like its pretty reasonable, but it's really not when soloing or doing something hard.

My personal favorite parts of SCH:

1) Graviga. I wanted to level this kinda solely for this... A lot of things don't sleep well or at all, but Gravity almost always works.

2) Bindga. If sleepga or graviga didn't work, this one most likely will.

3) Helix spells. I think these have a lot of potential. The fact they are already viable without any sort of equipment or merit enhancement is really promising. Right now, I'm getting a 9 or 10 damage/MP ratio easily.

4) Fast cast rate. When subbing RDM, you get 2 fast cast traits and the -10% cast time and recast time from Arts. Very cool!

[Spekkio]

now that several more sch seem to have reached 75, has anyone tried the geometric increase in damage idea from modus veritas that i had a while back? it was verified back then that multiple modus veritas would continue to double the damage/tick if used on the same helix spell. IE if i cast cryohelix for 100, used modus veritas, was hit with wild card, then used veritas again, it dealt 400 damage/tick. the other necessary condition was that veritas could never remove the last tick of a helix. geosync on the last page demonstrated (i think) that veritas does round up, if i read the information correctly. his claim was:

You have to Modus a helix very very fast to get the full damage on it... like even before you see your damage. Remember, the first actual DoT tick kicks in at 2 seconds.

Modus @1s:
Damage
2s: Damagex2
12s: Damagex2
22s: Damagex2

No Modus:
Damage
2s: Damage
repeat x4

So, if you Modus your helix fast enough... you do 7 of the initial damage rather than 6.

this indicates to me that there is a significant chance that the system is "rounding up" or otherwise ensuring that you're not getting less damage due to using a veritas as it clearly demonstrates that the system does not always round down. if this can be tested independently and repeatably, this may be an indication that all conditions to create a single DoT tick for over 100,000 damage exist and such a technique is possible. again, as i've always stated throughout this process, the scale and timing make this task difficult, but a skilled group might be able to use this technique effectively to 1 shot grand wyrms (saving time on the fight. not implying we need help winning them.) or if you want to get your hopes up (i'm not holding my breath) AV.

[Genosync]

Everyone's again missing the whole point of the post.

The whole point was, he used a standard way to grab hate that we all know works.

Not this new 'scholar curagas other party in alliance' idea that was in the thread.

Seriously, people need to fucking read the thread better if you're going to post in it.

[Not Kuno]

I agree with all your points Keiko, however as someone who does not sub RDM all the time, SCH does not get any natural enfeebles. I think that is a huge negative that sort of came advertised with the job. Being able to use Manifestation for Aspir and Drain only is completely useless.

Also I really really really hope they change the Light/Dark Arts icons.

[Genosync]

I agree with all your points Keiko, however as someone who does not sub RDM all the time, SCH does not get any natural enfeebles. I think that is a huge negative that sort of came advertised with the job. Being able to use Manifestation for Aspir and Drain only is completely useless.

Also I really really really hope they change the Light/Dark Arts icons.

Branson's dat mods change the Light/Dark Arts icons to Haste icons that are easy to tell the difference between. Really really useful, imo.

[Genosync]

Issues I personally had:

1) Unable to use Silencga... I'm sorry but WTF is with this? You can argue the whole its a light spell thing but I think it's an excuse...

I'd have to agree that it's pretty awful that we don't have access to Paralyga, Slowga, and Silencega, considering that they're less overall useful even than Graviga and Bindga are. I also have extreme issues with the whole 'must be in Dark Arts for Enfeebling skill but Slow/Silence/Paralyze get mp/cast%+'.

2) Strategems recast is a tad long. I can't even use 1 per mob while soloing non-BST pets. How is SCH supposed to be an ability based job when you can't even use it once per fight soloing? I've soloed to 74 thusfar and the abilities SCH gains are pretty much reserve bail out moves for me. I'll usually save them for Graviga>bailout zone or Alacrity for quick kill if gravity wears.

Agreed here too. Really, it needs to be a 1min recast on Strategems. I know it's kind of well, a really short recast... but keep in mind how weak Scholar is as a main job and how subjob dependant it is.

3) Ebullience effect is only 20%. That's a bit weak for something you can only use every 4 minutes. I was hoping for like a mini-elemental seal effect... it's just damage though.

Agreed here, because any time you'd want that 20% bonus, it's better over the course of time to just use 50% less MP on a cast.

4) Weather spells... nice idea, horrible in practice. If you EVER hear some SCH saying how cool these are, ask them if they've ever tried to buff an entire PT with it. I tried this just to test it out, despite already knowing it was impossible using basic math. 2 minute recast with 2 minute duration... If you use Accession with this, it's 2 minute duration and 4 minute recast. That's the first problem. If you fix this, then the fact it's 2 minute duration and accession is 4 minute recast also makes this impossible. Great idea, terrible in practice beyond buffing 1, or possibly 2 people. Coolness factor doesn't help in the long run.

Alright, this is where we've got the first issue. To start with, I don't know if it has been proven or shown by any math or anything, but I'm under the impression from many numerous casts that not only does day/weather affect damage, but it always seems like it affects magic accuracy too. Extremely hard to test and doubt anyone will, but I'm going to say it does and be the weird one.

Anyway, you can swap back and forth between two different weathers as needed; it's not really as bad as you're making it out to be. They just, again, need to fix Strategems in general.

5) Gear, or lack there of. Was mentioned earlier that a SCH could not function as a DD at nidhogg becuase of resists. I think updates will naturally fix this though. I'm thinking mainly elemental, enfeebling, and dark magic skill gear.

Don't forget that Scholar can equip a good deal of Elemental gear, and they also have a lot of INT available to them (with the standard mage sets).

I've got 293 Elemental on mine without having to gimp my 'cap for an Elite Beret... and that's not really terrible.

6) Light Arts and Dark Arts "status" looks the same. It's really confusing in the heat of a fight sometimes. At least make these 2 distiguishable.

Fix it yourself, Brandson's dat pack.

7) Light Arts and Dark Arts have 1 minute recasts. This may seem like its pretty reasonable, but it's really not when soloing or doing something hard.

Scholar was not designed to solo--as stated in the quest text, and the rest of the Scholar text, they are basically masters of the battlefield... the overseers, the strategists... since when do those people go out by themselves anyway? They're not strong enough to.

If you want to solo, hop on your Black Mage.

My personal favorite parts of SCH:

1) Graviga. I wanted to level this kinda solely for this... A lot of things don't sleep well or at all, but Gravity almost always works.

Mmhm.

2) Bindga. If sleepga or graviga didn't work, this one most likely will.

Yep.

3) Helix spells. I think these have a lot of potential. The fact they are already viable without any sort of equipment or merit enhancement is really promising. Right now, I'm getting a 9 or 10 damage/MP ratio easily.

I got resisted 3/4 times on MBs on Jailer of Love without elemental seal on my helices with that 293 Elemental (and one was 303 'cause of Ice). All of them landed for sub 100dmg with Ebuillence.

I landed a non-MB Cyrohelix, Elemental Seal, with Ebuillence, for 79 dmg.

They're gimp at the moment and Scholar in general needs some fixing, if these were supposed to be job defining spells. Because JoL is one of those 'takes forever to kill' mobs where DoT spells would be useful.

4) Fast cast rate. When subbing RDM, you get 2 fast cast traits and the -10% cast time and recast time from Arts. Very cool!

Yeah, but... you still have to sub RDM. To do anything on Scholar... and not having status cures, it just makes you worse than a RDM/WHM anyway.

[Not Kuno]

I don't like to use 3rd party tools, and that does nothing to people who play on PS2 or Xbox.

It's a super simple fix SE can do that goes a long way to help the job.

[liefe]

I've enjoyed SCH so far for the most part, but it does pale in comparison to the other mage jobs using the same skill/spell sets.

Main issues (which weren't mentioned in other posts that I caught):

-No innate MAB trait. Should get at least level 2, possibly level 3. Maybe on a 30-50-70 scale.

-Weather spells need to be SIGNIFICANTLY powered up. Seriously, is a 15-30 minute duration that big of an issue? The bonus from said abilities isn't significant enough to really warrant them having such stupid durations (they are clickable off and overwritable by other weather buffs as well so it's not like you couldn't change it).

-Needs more job specific magic. The current spells are nice, but the job needs more. Possibly spells that only work when Light/Dark arts are active. When you think about the mage jobs in general what sets them aside from the others are the abilities that are job specific or unsubbable. SCH offers very little in this respect. It technically only has 2 unique magics (since the effects are the same and untiered, but the elements are different and they don't stack with each other).