A Long-time Player's Perspective: History of Vana'diel

[Pacha]

Summary:
Zilart was good, exciting, and challenging and established a good endgame system through Sky.
CoP was good but started the decline. HNM's that drop nothing = not good.
ToA had a few good things but continued the downward spiral of the game. Fast exp and easier way to get to 75 hurt the game. No final, endgame zone at the end of missions = very bad
WoTG looks like it's going down the same downward spiral as in CoP and ToA.
Two questions that I need advice on:
1. Is there any legitimate hope for FFXI at this point and is it still worth playing/paying?
2. What other PC games (online or otherwise) would be fun to play other than FFXI?



The history of Van'a diel from a long-time player's perspective:

Zilart "The Golden Age of FFXI"

When I first picked up the game I loved it. I was a classic FF fan having played since the NES release of FF. I enjoyed lvl'ing up from scratch in Ronfare and doing the multitude of quests and missions and building gil etc. All was well in the early stages of the game. There were goals to reach that not many were able to accomplish and that you could shoot for such as: sky, 3 kings, finishing the nation missions. Everything was new, the storyline was great and the game was exciting.
I raced to get to 75 along with some others and was one of the first on my server to break 70. It was difficult to get people together to do missions etc. but it was challenging at the same time because there were so few high lvl players. Even AF keys were difficult to obtain. However, although these things were difficult to accomplish, they were rewarding in the end because there was a great work ? reward ratio. The work was tough but it was enjoyable and the gear (such as AF and abjuration gear) greatly increased your stats and performance.
As the year passed by I noticed that I was playing the game quite a bit but it was ok because I was really enjoying the game as well as the people I met. Everybody was excited about how the game would progress and it seemed like SE had developed a winning formula with the pop item farming as well as the king ? HQ king system which included big, exciting drops that few could obtain.
At this point, complaints about the game were rare. Many were trying still trying to reach 75 and the beautiful part about it is you actually had to have skill and dedication to the job in order to reach the highest lvl. People who had a 75 job actually knew how to play their job most of the time. There was great anticipation for future updates and expansions.

Missions:
Zilart missions as well as the base nation missions were awesome and rewarding. They required getting a group together of friends and it started good ongoing, in-game relationships that still exist today. Although the Zilart missions were somewhat easy, they were hard enough to where you had to get a group of 6 together most of the time and they were fun. Also, the reward of getting to sky was huge. Sky was very nice aethetically and the mobs actually dropped worthwhile money drops that are still sellable today. Also, the abj. gear provided a huge improvement to one's character.

HNM's:
When they were first added, the 3 kings mobs were something to shoot for and they were very exciting to fight. Also, the drops were amazing. The same unfortunately cannot be said for future HNM's that were added. I believe that the kings would be must less crowded if there was actually progression in gear and difficulty in HNM's and there was actually a step up from kings. Rather, there are merely side-grades to the 3 kings gear and that is why they are still camped by 100+ people to this day. The fact that this gear from the 3 kings is still basically the best or on par with the best gear is absolutely ridiculous and is a prme example of mind-bogglingly poor design. Despite all this, the 3 kings were at least something to aspire to. Although most of the people who read this don't remember a time when the 3 kings were only camped by 1-2 ls's tops, I do remember this time. Our LS got 30+ fafnir's in a row during this time and it was nice. We could have moved on to bigger and better things however, we are still camping fafnir 3 years later and that is not good. However, I believe if SE had added more mobs like the 3 kings that had similar loot pools that the more experienced LS's would have been able to move on to the harder mobs and dragon's aery wouldn't be filled with 100's of people now.

CoP "The beginning of the Dark Age"
The hype and excitement for this expansion was huge. When the expansion was first released it offered a good deal of content which took a good deal of work to complete. There was an unusual lack of gear implemented early and this made a few wonder but the missions were fun, challenging, and exciting and so were the big NM's so many were happy and still excited to play the game.

Missions:
SE focused on storyline for this expansion and generally, people approved of the way missions progressed. However, many also thought that the missions were too hard and annoying in that they were level capped and so hard to find a party for.
The thing is, sea gave people something to shoot for. It was an endgame zone that not many could reach and it was a big accomplishment to finish all the missions. Also, the end rewards were huge (rings, earrings, B2 fight). In my opinion, the CoP missions were well done and it was a good thing that they were hard. These missions separated the skilled and dedicated players from the weaker players and it actually provided a way to distinguish yourself from others.

HNM's:
In CoP the world wyrms were added. Although, they didn't drop much, they did drop some interesting things (gaiters, mats for d harness, mantel, etc.). Many have some negative thoughts about the wyrms but I think that they were a good thing overall because they were actually challenging and gave end game ls's something to shoot for and work towards as an LS.
Also, CoP added B2, ENM's etc. which were solid and sea was fun to explore and discover everything that was hidden.
Although, CoP was a solid expansion (second best imo compared to Zilart). However, it began a progression towards mediocrity that would not stop and still has not stopped. There is much debate about the actual moment when FFXI "jumped the shark" but I believe it happened around this time. The phrase jumping the shark refers to the scene in Happy Days where the Fonz jumps over a shark while water skiing. This single event was so ridiculous that it has become synonymous with the downfall of certain tv shows etc. as basically signifying the point at which things go from bad to irreparably terrible.
The CoP wyrms gave a hint at the misery that was to come in the game and they gave the FFXI community a glimpse of what SE was truly capable of, for example: getting no drops whatsoever from Tiamat. This was completely ridiculous considering the amt. of time and energy needed to kill Tiamat (especially when it was first released). In addition the drops from Jorm were terrible to a point where nobody really wanted to kill it more than once unless they were going for the JSE which was desireable for a short time. Vrtra was pretty hard and required a huge group for the adds and once again, the drops were lackluster. However, nothing personified the future problems that FFXI would have more than Absolute Virtue.
AV was ridiculous from the start. The way they set up sea was also absolutely a joke. The pop items were difficult to farm, which was ok, but when the NM's started being killed the horror was realized: these pop items don't drop 100%... Players started to realize that sea was a huge time-sink and popping JOL could take months if your LS was unlucky. Then, AV was finally popped. The mob was impossible and stupid. Over 2 yr's have passed and still nobody has really found out how to beat it. The really crazy thing is that it has been beatable a few times but then ninja-edited to its current impossible to state. Not to mention, the thing hardly ever pops (1/7 or so for our LS). Also, the drops aren't even all that impressive. SE has since changed the droprate but it took way too long. Lastly, the gear from all of the HNM's in CoP were strikingly side-progressing drops. In other words, the gear coming from these mobs did not make nearly as big an impact on the stats or capability of your character and this lowered the motivation to achieve these gears.

ToA: "The Dark Age plunges further into darkness"

In my opinion, ToA was a very poor expansion. Reason being, the whole thing felt rushed and the missions added nothing to the game. Also, although many will argue that ToA was good because it added quick merit camps, I would say that this was actually a bad thing. What ToA merit camps did to the game was lower the overall skill level of people at high lvl's. One could get exp so easily it was pathetic and it didn't take much time. Also, SE made it much much easier to get to 75 in recent date and now with ToA exp zones, players could reach 75 even if they were complete noobs.

Missions:
Are you kidding me? The tradition of great missions and storyline that Zilart and CoP established were totally gone. In their place we received Naja, the single most annoying NPC in the game. On top of that, there were hardly any rewards. The end rings were not very good and there was a real lack of satisfaction when the missions were complete because they were so easy and required so little time commitment. Also, SE's biggest mistake on this expansion was throwing out their previous concept of: work hard on missions and then at the end of the missions, you finally reach an endgame zone that others who haven't completed the missions can't enter. Leaving this element out totally threw out the tradition and system of endgame that they established in earlier expansions and left the majority of the playerbase wondering why they didn't feel any sense of accomplishment after finishing the missions. Salvage is great and all but anyone can do it at any time and once again the gear is generally side-grades.

HNM's:
Also, to my horror and many others, the game that we had put so much effort in to become well geared and skilled was going down the path to ruin in terms of HNM's. The ToA HNM's were an absolute joke. Hydra was the one of the biggest slaps in the face in history from SE because the drops were truly horrible. The poison neckpiece was almost insulting how it killed the player practically while it was on and made a minimal improvement to performance. Also, the beastman kings dropped literally nothing many times and most LS's could care less about them.
Now, I realize the counterargument to my complaints. Many will say that ToA's quick exp was great because it was quick exp and decreased pt wait time. However, I believe this quick exp had a very negative impact on the overall skill lvl of the playerbase. Also, some will say, oh, Cerb and Khim are awesome HNM's what about them? In response, I would say that these mobs have weak, side-grading drops that are not worth the time and can't compare to the land kings.

WoTG "The bottom of the Downward Spiral"

WoTG was hyped out of control. With every new expansion I think people want to believe that this will be the one that saves the game and takes us back to a more Zilart-type feel. However, when the expansion was released our anticipation was met with horror. The expansion had almost no content and solidified our fears that there is minimal work being done on the game by SE. The game feels like it has been put on the backburner to bigger and better things by the company who created it. They are taking no pride in their game at this point it seems.

Missions etc.:
The missions were a huge disappointment so far. This expansion has sooooo much potential in that they could continue the exciting original storyline and explain the details. However, so far the missions look like half-assed ToA-style CS missions that require no skill or challenge whatsoever. I thought that because they were basically reusing existing zones that SE would have a lot of time to make new content. All these new zones are easy places to put NM's and SE could actually have some progression in gear by creating new hard mobs in the past that require WoTG gear. The WoTG gear could only be used in the past and therefore they could actually progress the game and not make relic weapons etc. obsolete. Instead, I fear that SE isn't going to live up to this potential with this expansion and merely half-ass it throughout the whole thing.
Campaign is buggy and it's merely filler, not content. It's a nice way to earn some quick exp but campaign isn't a fun way to spend time in the game, rather, it's another repetitive grind that is designed to be a time sink. The rewards are generally garbage side-grades and there may be one or two decent things in the future like perdu blade but generally the items will be undesirable.

HNM's:
....There aren't any. Besides an easily defeated sandworm, there is not even anything resembling a NM in the expansion at this point. Not to mention, the sandworm has continued with the tradition and taken it a step further because…it doesn't drop anything! I feel like SE is so overly concerned with (appearing to be concerned) that they have lost the ability to conceive non-BCNM NM's that can drop stuff that's actually desirable. I feel that SE's idea of work/reward is so skewed at this point that they have totally lost touch of what their players want. I mean, campaign is nice but would endgame players really ask for something like campaign in an expansion? I surely hope not. What they would ask of SE is: focus on content through missions, new jobs, and new quests.
I realize the counterargument to this: "Pacha, we don't know what is in store for campaign." My response: "Why should we expect anything else but side-graded gear, mobs that drop nothing, and long, tedious, repetitive, no-skill-required grinds to get more side-graded gear?"
Recently, the worst thing of them all has happened: account hackings. The fact that FFXI websites are storing computer hacks and viruses makes me not even want to be involved with the game anymore. Why should I expose myself to hackers on a game that I rarely have fun playing anymore?
I also realize that the standard, standard response to this will be: "Quit the game" or just "?". The thing is, I really have enjoyed this game over the years. It has become part of my life and I have a lot of good memories from it. Also, I will always be a gamer in some medium and I don't know where to go from here. Quitting the game would be a bummer and I'd like to have some hope for FFXI but it's dwindled pretty low at this point. This perspective isn't coming from someone who has just picked up the game. Rather, it comes from someone who has been playing for a very long time and loves the FF genre. To the few people that still say I should just quit or that FFXI isn't that bad I would ask you to take a step back and think about it. At this point, people rarely even defend the game anymore. Instead of saying "FFXI isn't that bad there are some good things" most people just admit "yeah FFXI kind of sucks."

Basically, at this point I’m seeking some advice. I really enjoy FF in general and I've had a lot of fun on FFXI and met a lot of people. I held onto hope that this game would improve despite all of these negative things that have come about in recent times. Thus, I would like the opinion of others about whether or not I should keep playing in hopes that something fun will be released or if I should just quit and play another game. In that situation, what other game would be good to play on PC besides FFXI?

[ringthree]

What game have you been playing? Because its obviously not the game that everyone else has been playing.

[Ferien]

It's obvious (and hell, SE even said it themselves) that Square wants to make the game better for casual players. Before CoP came out, there was literally nothing for casual players to do besides xp. CoP brought ENMs, AU brought Assaults, besieged, and a load of xp camps, and WotG has so far brought Besieged-on-crack. The most common complaint 4 years ago was that there was very little content for a player with limited time (which was the main reason for people to switch to WoW when it first came out). Now, there is a plethora of that content.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the standards of the game have changed. How do you define "endgame" content? HNMs and an area like Sky or Sea? Do Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, or Einherjar not count as "endgame"? Or is it just that the average group of players is good enough now that these events are easy? Wake up, so is everything they released in RoZ.

If SE had just "continued the RoZ formula," there would be no new players at all, and the game would have died long ago. You can't design an entire game around your hardcore players, especially when they make up the minority of the player base.

[Amele]

nyzul isle is an endgame area (just like sea and sky) but the gate to the content isn't some stupid pop condition nm or farming rare drops for 5 hours: it's assault tags.

there's even exp camps, just integrated into other zones: this endgame zone is the one with the most verisimilitude in all of FFXI - (vs. floating platform, crystal inside a city inside the crystal, etc.)

you get seven events a week in nyzul Isle, which can be up to 700 minutes of content, that's 11:40hrs. - for the more casual player, you can do 210 minutes of content, which is still a respectable 3 hours and 30 minutes (slightly more than limbus or equivalent to a one day a week sky run.)

most of us who are active in salvage spend more time in salvage than we do in any other single endgame content (dynamis is gated at 6 hours per week; limbus is gated at 2hours per week, sea and sky may take more than 12 hours if you really want to spend that much time up there, but it won't be 12 -active- hours.)

[layoneil]

1) people who say "Jump The Shark" auto-fail, especially outside of a TV environment.

2) your nostalgia fails, 3 Kings is the single worse part of the game including Einherjar (which is a close 2nd and mostly because it drops similar loot). Sky failed for a very long period of time when it was dominated by RMT, neither system aged well as the endgame population increased.

[Pacha]

What game have you been playing? Because its obviously not the game that everyone else has been playing.

Could you umm...elaborate a little?

[Ryko]

What game have you been playing? Because its obviously not the game that everyone else has been playing.

Could you umm...elaborate a little?

Probably the fact that TOAU did more for end-game accessibility than Zilart did, the whole "COP was the worst thing ever" shit needs to fucking die already and that Zilart's only "golden age" was when the first batch of players hit 75 and had little to no competition on HNMs. The only zilart drops worth a damn still are 2 drops that are fucking bitches and a half to camp/wait for and Ebody which at least has something resembling an alternative, the rest got trumped.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still rather just afk and bang out a quick nidhogg here and there but get off it, that sort of blind retarded nostalgia is the only reason old farts like hulk hogan haven't been left for dead yet.

[Ddong]

admin edit: I don't listen to the rules and so my post gets erased.

[Weeks]

The only zilart drops worth a damn still are 2 drops that are fucking bitches and a half to camp/wait for and Ebody which at least has something resembling an alternative, the rest got trumped.

You're exaggerating here. Even ignoring relics due to the ridiculous amount of effort required, Ridill, D-Ring, Black Belt, and Haidate are four of the top items in this game, and stuff like E. Body and Hecatomb gear is better second-tier loot than you get from any of the other expansions. RoZ suffers because most of the best items are tied to the 3 kings system, but it takes a hell of a stretch to argue that its rewards don't outclass the other expansions'.

[Pacha]

My question to you, in light of the replies is: Do you think that HNM's that drop nothing is a good thing? because that's basically all we've gotten since Zilart (Sandworm, Jorm, Hydra, JaJa, etc.). Is it good that we're still doing Dynamis, 3 kings, etc. every day despite them being 3 years old+? Aren't you a little bit bummed at the total lack of content in WoTG and is there simply going to be more besieged spin-offs and reused zones disguised as content in the future?

Anyway, like I said, I love FFXI and I've had a lot of good times in the game and I don't really want to stop playing because I still have hope for this expansion. Hopefully the Jan. update includes some freaking missions that require hard fights to get through and some NM's...I don't think that's asking too much.

[Ryko]

The only zilart drops worth a damn still are 2 drops that are fucking bitches and a half to camp/wait for and Ebody which at least has something resembling an alternative, the rest got trumped.

You're exaggerating here.

Not exactly, I should have said "include 2 drops that are fucking bitches and a half to camp/wait for", those being Ridill and D ring. The mistake was in word choice. That said, the ubernesss of the blackbelt not to be ignored, I still drop its usefulness down a ton of notches just because of how often monk is even used anymore, it was practically a dead job until salvage came into the scene.

My question to you, in light of the replies is: Do you think that HNM's that drop nothing is a good thing? because that's basically all we've gotten since Zilart

Spoilers: There's more to this game than worldspawns. I still think that SE fucking around with HNM drops is some bullshit but seriously you're just as blind as the people who ignore them completely.

[layoneil]

My question to you, in light of the replies is: Do you think that HNM's that drop nothing is a good thing? because that's basically all we've gotten since Zilart (Sandworm, Jorm, Hydra, JaJa, etc.).

it's a move in the right direction, what would be considerably worse is if 200+ people goes from 3 hour camps in DA to Attohwa to Zhaylom to Rolanberry [S] and throughout that 12 hour cycle less than half of the 200 people actually got to engage a mob.

Is it good that we're still doing Dynamis, 3 kings, etc. every day despite them being 3 years old+?

Dynamis is okay, CoP Dynamis should be no more than half price. and 3 Kings is not good, but that's as much a failure of Zilart as it is of the later expansions not being able to replace it.

Aren't you a little bit bummed at the total lack of content in WoTG

way too early to tell.

[ringthree]

What game have you been playing? Because its obviously not the game that everyone else has been playing.

Could you umm...elaborate a little?

Sure. No problem. Your criticisms are personal, and definitely not universally accepted, yet you speak as if it was.

Does that help?

The vast majority of players believe that the game has massively improved in content since the start.

The fact that you talk about the problems with Dynamis and land Kings just shows that you may be out of touch with a large part of the great content that has been released since those were introduced.

The great thing about this game is the options. People used to do everything, there simply isn't the time in the day to do that anymore. That is a good thing. Just because you do not like what you choose to do, does not mean that everyone else is having that problem.

[Septimus]

Aren't you a little bit bummed at the total lack of content in WoTG

How many times do we have to hear this? Were people bummed that there was a lack of content when ToAU came out? Yes. Were people bummed that there was a lack of content when CoP came out? Yes. Were people bummed that there was a lack of content when RotZ came out? Probably.

Expansions are never released fully complete, this is a simple fact of life. Were they released complete, people would burn through all of the content then bitch that there was nothing to look forward to until the next expansion. What is the future of WotG going to hold? No one knows. We didn't know about Salvage, Nyzul Isle, or lolEinherjar before ToAU was released, or even after the first patch. We didn't know about Limbus or lolJailers before CoP was released, or even after the first patch. (We did however know about CoP Dynamis, but we didn't know how they would screw us over with it.)

There is no reason to hate on things that have not been released yet. Once it is released we are free to hate all over it, but before then is just plain silly.

[Ryko]

What game have you been playing? Because its obviously not the game that everyone else has been playing.

Could you umm...elaborate a little?

The fact that you talk about the problems with Dynamis and land Kings just shows that you may be out of touch with a large part of the great content that has been released since those were introduced.

Personally I thought the Kbody sig was a small indication of that but that might just be me being superficial.

[ringthree]

My question to you, in light of the replies is: Do you think that HNM's that drop nothing is a good thing? because that's basically all we've gotten since Zilart (Sandworm, Jorm, Hydra, JaJa, etc.). Is it good that we're still doing Dynamis, 3 kings, etc. every day despite them being 3 years old+? Aren't you a little bit bummed at the total lack of content in WoTG and is there simply going to be more besieged spin-offs and reused zones disguised as content in the future?

Anyway, like I said, I love FFXI and I've had a lot of good times in the game and I don't really want to stop playing because I still have hope for this expansion. Hopefully the Jan. update includes some freaking missions that require hard fights to get through and some NM's...I don't think that's asking too much.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, if you don't like it, then don't do it! Does your mother come into the room, give you are stern look and say "Honey, have you finished your Dynamis-Windhurst today? If you haven't then you can't go play with your friends in Limbus!"

I have massively cut down on my Dynamis time and I have never really spent much time at land Kings. Since that is the only content in the game, I must have been doing nothing for the past years...

And as a side note: Can I please have permission from the BG staff face-stab the next person that says that WotG is a failure because it doesn't have enough content? PLEASE!

[ringthree]

The mistake was in word choice. That said, the ubernesss of the blackbelt not to be ignored, I still drop its usefulness down a ton of notches just because of how often monk is even used anymore, it was practically a dead job until salvage came into the scene.

I never really thought about that before, but you are pretty much dead on. And I wonder if Salvage was made to correct that? Or did SE just luck out? I mean people use MNK for more things now with melee burning things, but Salvage really did show how a MNK could shine, even without a Black Belt.

[Amele]

The mistake was in word choice. That said, the ubernesss of the blackbelt not to be ignored, I still drop its usefulness down a ton of notches just because of how often monk is even used anymore, it was practically a dead job until salvage came into the scene.

I never really thought about that before, but you are pretty much dead on. And I wonder if Salvage was made to correct that? Or did SE just luck out? I mean people use MNK for more things now with melee burning things, but Salvage really did show how a MNK could shine, even without a Black Belt.

I think it was wholly intentional: dragoon was a nearly dead job - monk was a nearly dead job; which two jobs retain the 'largest' portion of their functionally totally restrained? (wyvern and fists)

they overdid it a little though, which is why they eventually added the chest at the start to make it more accessible.

Aren't you a little bit bummed at the total lack of content in WoTG

way too early to tell.

to be fair, day 1 AU (ok ok, day 2 AU) had Cerberus for the worldspawn folks, which has some decent drops. likewise with CoP (with the added bonus that the first couple attempts at the grand wyrms resulted in failures: too bad the drop lists kind of suck) and RoZ.

I haven't heard any whispers about worldspawns in WoG yet; so for the worldspawn jet setters, I could see how this would be a disappointing expansion comparatively.

[Pacha]

What game have you been playing? Because its obviously not the game that everyone else has been playing.

Could you umm...elaborate a little?

The fact that you talk about the problems with Dynamis and land Kings just shows that you may be out of touch with a large part of the great content that has been released since those were introduced.

Personally I thought the Kbody sig was a small indication of that but that might just be me being superficial.

Call me crazy, but after 70+ fafnirs and 10+ Nidhoggs, I'm kind of proud of my Kbody (and it still looks cool). Anyway, maybe I'm wrong that the majority of players don't defend the game anymore because most of you are defending it. I guess the people that still look at these forums are the die-hards though because all of my good friends have quit the game. What is most worrisome, is that people still defend the game while in the meantime SE is allowing accounts to get hacked even though it is obvious that the owner of the account didn't change the password.

As far as my statement about the lack of content in WoTG, let me elaborate a little. I'm mainly concerned about the ToA-like cutscene-only missions that have been added thus far (I realize there is a fight mixed in there). I'm worried that it is an indication of what is to come. I realize this discussion has been beaten into the ground but it's safe to say that, in my opinion, the content which has been added so far in WoTG does not look promising. That's simply my opinion. I realize there is more to the game than missions and NM's but I believe it's a part of the game that should be emphasized in WoTG.

[Zilong]

DRG is equivalent to a MNK in salvage now?

Fucking news to me.