Item Search
     
BG-Wiki Search
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 89

Thread: Yey! Another Haste Topic!     submit to reddit submit to twitter submit to tumblr

  1. #1
    TSwiftie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,920
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    **This post was written Dec '07, and some information maybe outdated**

    After trying to deduce the skill tiers for Victory March and it's haste gains, it became obvious that the previous model of x/512 wasn't working. I started from scratch with a new model x/1024. The model is more accurate than the previous one, but there are relatively few changes. For example, Homam Hands being 3% haste = 30/1024... this is equivalent to 15/512 under the previous model.

    -Recast can only be between 0 seconds and 255 seconds.
    -Haste is calculated by the equation: y=floor( (1-x)*c )
    Where:
    y=New delay or new recast
    x=Haste amount
    c=Base delay or base recast
    -Haste attainable from equipment is capped at 256/1024 (25%)
    -Haste attainable from magical sources is capped at 448/1024 (43.75%)
    -Weakness caps you at -1024/1024 magical haste. (100% Slow) *[This was changed in a patch and no longer applies.]*
    -Fast Cast appears to be applied after or before the effects of Haste and only affects recast.
    -Dual Wield is applied before the effects of Haste and only affects Attack Delay.

    The following items have been verified:
    Blitz Ring = 11/1024
    Homam Hands, Feet, Dusk Feet+1, Dusk Hands = 30/1024
    Homam Pants(not counting Fast Cast) = 30/1024(Most likely)
    Ace's Helm = 40/1024
    Turban = 50/1024
    Speed Belt = 61/1024
    Haste Spell = 150/1024
    Rune Chopper = 90/1024
    Advancing March (/w +2 horn) = 96/1024
    Haste Belt = 102/1024(Magical haste)
    Catastrophe = 102/1024(Equipment haste)

    Fast Cast:
    Loq Earring = 10/1024
    Homam Pants(Fast Cast only) = 20/1024(Most Likely)

    Below is a chart /w tested values of haste on Victory March[Editted: 1/10]:
    http://trutlels.com/omenfiles/vicmarchchart.JPG
    Advancing March /w +0 instrument: 64/1024
    Advancing March /w +1 instrument: 80/1024
    Advancing March /w +2 instrument: 96/1024

    +1 Instrument grants +16/1024
    +2 Instrument grants +32/1024

    =========================================

    I also went back and redid some delay tests~

    My first test, was to use Relic Scythe(999 Delay):
    SV Marches x2 + Haste Spell + Capped Eq + Hasso + Desp Blows = ~(956/1024)
    (1-956/1024) * 999 = ~66.3398 delay
    66.3398 delay / 60 = ~1.105 hits per second
    1.105 x 30 = ~33.1699 frames per hit

    My test showed 33.43 frames per hit. This is sufficient enough to assume we're reaching the expected ~93.35% haste.

    I also performed delay tests on a crab, /w and /wo slow.

    Robber Crab(Kuftal):
    Normal: ~242 Delay (~121.1 frames per attack)
    Elegy + Slow: ~411 Delay (~205.4 frames per attack)
    Estimated Slow% from this data: ~70%

    This test shows that slow follows the same equation for haste, and acts as a negative haste value.

    To better show the accelerating gains of haste, I made a simple graph. The idea is to show that at normal haste values, adding haste is not as benficial as it is at higher values. X-Axis is Haste%, Y-Axis is the number of times you'd attack in a normal attack round compared to base delay.
    http://trutlels.com/omenfiles/hastegraph.JPG

    ===================================
    All of this data can be deduced by first making the assumption that haste values can be accurately described by x/1024.

    Using Victory March and varying degrees of skill gear, combined with dread spikes recast, you will find changes in recast at:

    471/472 skill
    505/506 skill
    545/546 skill

    Normalli a given recast will give you a range of 4-5 possible values of Haste values. Since the recast changes at those skill markers, we can accurately determine that they are the lowest and highest in their respective skill ranges.

    Since you are able to change skill gear and increment Victory March by 1/1024 you can accurately combine it with equipment and look for where the recast changes. After finishing the March chart, I was able to test everything precisely.

    I did test whether sing/wind had different potency, but it was not the case. Both are factored equalli. The max skill I was able to obtain on my friend's brd is 551. I'm missing a possible 9 skill total which is why I'm unable to test any higher march tiers.

    Edits:
    -Changed chart to accurately reflect March /w +0 instrument.
    -Changed Homam Pants info, added small note on fast cast.
    -Thank you Valyana of Ramuh for correcting mistakes~
    -Tested up to 554 skill and updated chart.
    -Added disclaimer and a note on weakness.

  2. #2

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    probably obvious questions, but in the chart you posted, i assume the y axis is the combined singing/insturment skill and the x is the + skill on the insturment? what are the 3 entries below the chart of? i'm not sure i see what the variable between the 3 tests is.

  3. #3
    TSwiftie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,920
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    My fault, let me edit that =x. It's supposed to be the cap/potency change on Advancing March /w different + instruments =x.

  4. #4
    Banned.

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    4,769
    BG Level
    7

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Is there Aaron Esurance? lol :D

  5. #5
    Bagel
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,397
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Valefor

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Thank you for an amazing post!

    Do recast timers always start at whole numbers? I know we can't see the decimal, but I'm asking if it's there (hidden).

    In other words, is it possible to reduce recast time by a fraction of a second?

  6. #6
    Melee Summoner
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    38
    BG Level
    1

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    holy crap, this is helpful
    thanks

  7. #7
    Old Merits
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,172
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Leviathan

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gergall
    Thank you for an amazing post!

    Do recast timers always start at whole numbers? I know we can't see the decimal, but I'm asking if it's there (hidden).

    In other words, is it possible to reduce recast time by a fraction of a second?
    I believe that's why the value is floored, it removes the fractions of a second.

  8. #8
    Bagel
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,397
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Valefor

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Linsivi
    Quote Originally Posted by Gergall
    Thank you for an amazing post!

    Do recast timers always start at whole numbers? I know we can't see the decimal, but I'm asking if it's there (hidden).

    In other words, is it possible to reduce recast time by a fraction of a second?
    I believe that's why the value is floored, it removes the fractions of a second.
    Oh I see it now, thank you!

    So even if I go insane on my +skill build, there is a good chance that it won't do anything for a lot of recast timers

  9. #9

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirschy
    -Weakness caps you at -1024/1024 magical haste. (100% Slow)
    Just need to point that out to naru

  10. #10
    Sea Torques
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    590
    BG Level
    5
    FFXIV Character
    Dense Fever
    FFXIV Server
    Ragnarok
    FFXI Server
    Bahamut

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Thank you for doing all of the testing to clean up our previous model! This is very helpful!

  11. #11

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    No Haste dance testing? Need to know what type of haste!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirschy
    Homam Hands, Feet, Dusk Feet+1, Dusk Hands = 30/1024
    Homam Pants(not counting Fast Cast) = 34/1024
    So Homam pant's 3% is more than a normal 3%?

  12. #12
    TSwiftie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,920
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrave
    No Haste dance testing? Need to know what type of haste!

    So Homam pant's 3% is more than a normal 3%?
    Oddly enough, yea. I got way over the equipment cap, and noticed the fast cast only gave me 13/1024. And by itself, it's 47/1024. So the Eq Haste must be 34/1024 by deduction =o.

    As for Haste Dance... I would need someone with a 43+ dancer to help me test =x.

  13. #13

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Would be helpful to get some returns from Barb. Zerehs, Usukane, and Skadi pieces to see if the theory of "more haste in my pants" holds any water elsewhere (though none of those items can be equipped by your DRK to test ).

  14. #14
    TSwiftie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,920
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    I have usukane pants and feet, so I can probably design a test to check them. I'll do that later today. I'm missing the head + body piece, so I can't test the set to an accurate degree.

  15. #15

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    I'm sure mages would be interested in Nashira returns as well, but personally I'm most interested in Haste Samba's effects for the DRK zerg potential. It's supposed to be a weapon delay reduction of 5%, yes?

  16. #16
    TSwiftie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,920
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Usukane Feet:

    2% expected 20/1024

    20 + 116 = 136 = 8 seconds off
    20 + 117 = 137 = 9 seconds off

    116 = Vic March /w 525 skill
    117 = Vic March /w 526 skill

    Usukane feet + 525 skill = 8 seconds off
    Usukane feet + 526 skill = 9 seconds off

    Usukane feet = 20/1024
    ------------------------
    Usukane Pants:

    3% expected 30/1024

    30 + 61 + 113 = 204 = 12 seconds off
    30 + 61 + 114 = 205 = 13 seconds off

    61 = speed belt
    113 = Vic March /w 505 skill
    114 = Vic March /w 506 skill

    Usukane Pants + Speed Belt + 505skill = 12 seconds off
    Usukane Pants + Speed Belt + 506skill = 13 seconds off

    Usukane pants = 30/1024
    ---------------------------
    Byakko's Pants:

    5% expected 50/1024

    50 + 20 + 117 = 11 seconds off
    50 + 20 + 118 = 12 seconds off

    20 = Usu Feet
    117 = Vic March /w 532 Skill
    118 = Vic March /w 533 skill

    Byakko + Usu + 532 skill = 11 seconds off
    Byakko + Usu + 533 skill = 12 seconds off

    Byakko Pants = 50/1024
    -----------------------------------
    What I did is use nin/whm /w Reraise (60 sec recast). I located key points where the recast would change /w 1/1024 of haste, and then tested.

  17. #17
    E. Body
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,053
    BG Level
    7
    FFXI Server
    Leviathan

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Wow, so haste really has bigtime increasing returns, huh.

    :O

  18. #18
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    825
    BG Level
    5

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirschy
    Quote Originally Posted by Xrave
    So Homam pant's 3% is more than a normal 3%?
    Oddly enough, yea. I got way over the equipment cap, and noticed the fast cast only gave me 13/1024. And by itself, it's 47/1024. So the Eq Haste must be 34/1024 by deduction =o.
    Are you taking into account that Fast Cast is applied separately from Haste?

  19. #19
    If you stopped to actually learn something you might not post these uninformed posts.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,497
    BG Level
    6

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    Catastrope + speed belt + 3x homam should add up to 270 (256cap), but was it not reported that adding blitz ring ontop of that gave more haste?

    Can you confirm Hasso and Desp.blows values?

  20. #20
    TSwiftie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,920
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Re: Yey! Another Haste Topic!

    First I used the following tests to accurately determine the Haste Eq Cap. Then accurately determined the combined effect of Homam Pants Haste + Fast Cast. Then deduced the Fast Cast effect on recast. From there you can make the logical conclusion that remaining unaccounted effect on haste is due to the haste granted by the 3% printed on the piece.
    ----------------------
    Eq Cap:

    'Expected'
    Turban(50) + Rune Chopper(90) + Homam Hands(30) + Homam Feet(30) + Speed Belt(61) = 261
    261/1024 = 46 seconds off

    'Actual'
    Turban + Rune Chopper + Homam Hands + Homam Feet + Speed Belt = 45 seconds off
    Haste from Eq caps between 251-256

    Test 2:
    255 + 114(512 skill) = 369 = 65 seconds off
    256 + 114(512 skill) = 370 = 66 seconds off

    Turban + Rune Chopper + Homam Hands + Homam Feet + Speed Belt + Vic March /w 512 skill = 66 seconds off~

    Test 3: Confirm~

    256 + 113(502 skill) = 369 = 65 seconds off -- checks~
    256 + 114(509 skill) = 370 = 66 seconds off -- checks~

    Equipment Cap is 256/1024
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Homam Pants(This test is for total effect of pants on recast. Eq + Fast Cast):

    Homam Pants = 9 seconds off (46-51 range)

    46 + 50 = 96 = 17 seconds off
    47 + 50 = 97 = 18 seconds off

    Turban + Homam Legs = 18 seconds off (47-51 range)

    47 + 50 + 113(502 skill) = 210 = 37 seconds off
    48 + 50 + 113(502 skill) = 211 = 38 seconds off

    Turban + Homam Legs + 502 skill March = 37 seconds off

    Homam Pants = 47/1024 Recast
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Test "Fast Cast" from Homam Pants:

    Since I know that the following setup is Eq Capped:
    Turban + Rune Chopper + Homam Hands + Homam Feet + Speed Belt + Blitz Ring = 256
    I can add Homam Pants to this set, and only be changing the recast by the "Fast Cast" amount.

    115 + Eq Cap + Pants Fast Cast = 68 seconds off~ (Range of 382-386)
    115 from March + 256 from Eq Cap = 371
    Range of 11-15 for Pants Fast Cast

    Test 2:
    256 + 14 = 270
    256 + 15 = 271

    116 (520 skill) + 270 = 386 = 68 seconds off
    116 (520 skill) + 271 = 387 = 69 seconds off

    Tested: 68 seconds off. Range of 11-14

    Test 3:
    256 + 13 = 269
    256 + 14 = 270

    117 + 269 = 386 = 68 seconds off
    117 + 270 = 387 = 69 seconds off

    Tested: 68 seconds off. Range of 11-13

    Test 4:
    256 + 12 = 268
    256 + 13 = 269

    118 + 268 = 386 = 68 seconds off
    118 + 269 = 387 = 69 seconds off

    Tested: 69 seconds off. 13/1024

    Fast Cast from Homam Pants = 13/1024
    ---------------------------------------
    Catastrope + speed belt + 3x homam should add up to 270 (256cap), but was it not reported that adding blitz ring ontop of that gave more haste?

    Can you confirm Hasso and Desp.blows values?
    The original idea was that if you had "25%"(Printed Value) of haste eq, you realli only had 250/1024 haste, which 6/1024 shy of the cap. I said adding a blitz ring, or shooting for a total of "26%"(Printed Value) made sure you actualli hit the Eq Cap.

    Hasso and Desp Blows are purely Attack Speed. They can be estimated as follows:
    102/1024 = Hasso
    50/1024 = Each Desp Blow Merit.

    I make no claims to accurately detect 1/1024 worth of haste in Attack Delay. Just for fun here would be the math (disregarding that I don't know how the actual rounding/trunacting proceedure would work on Delay.)

    If Hasso = 100/1024:
    ( 1 - 100/1024) * 999 = 901.4414
    901.4414/60 seconds = 15.024
    15.024*30 frames = 450.72 frames per attack

    If Hasso=102/1024:
    ( 1 - 102/1024) * 999 = 899.4902
    899.4902/60 seconds = 14.9915
    14.9915*30 frames = 449.75 frames per attack

    Thats the difference of 1 frame, or 1/30th of a second between each attack.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

  • Decrease Size
    Increase Size
  • Remove Text Formatting
  • Insert Link Insert Image Insert Video
  • Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
  • Insert NSFW Tag
  • Insert Spoiler Tag

Similar Threads

  1. Another Chigoe topic
    By Julian in forum FFXI: Everything
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 2010-04-02, 12:20
  2. Another fortitude topic
    By Cream Soda in forum FFXI: Everything
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 2009-01-12, 10:57
  3. Another Samurai Topic
    By Naver in forum FFXI: Everything
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 2008-04-01, 13:10
  4. Another besieged topic lawl
    By zymurgy in forum FFXI: Everything
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 2006-05-07, 19:22
  5. Another Jailer of Love topic
    By Julian in forum FFXI: Everything
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 2005-11-28, 13:53