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  1. #1
    Sea Torques
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    Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    What's the difference of Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken ? Is this exactly the same or what ?

    e.g. Volunteer's Ring M Def. Bonus +3 vs Merman's Ring M. Damage Taken -4%
    Which one is better?

  2. #2

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    merman's ring is better unless you're already at -50% magic damage taken.

  3. #3
    E. Body
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    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    I thought MDB relates to your resistance of spells and magic damage, whereas Magic Dmg Taken-% is just straight up reducing the amount of damage you take by whatever % is on the gear.

  4. #4

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Magic defense bonus is used in the formula when calculating the difference between MATK and MDEF. Magic damage taken is a %age taken off at the end of that formula, so say if you are gonna take 1800 damage from some magic attack, it will knock however many %age damage off that 1800.

    My cold is getting to my head right now, so I can't really think clearly which is better, but those are the "differences"(1st question of OP).

  5. #5

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexa
    I thought MDB relates to your resistance of spells and magic damage, whereas Magic Dmg Taken-% is just straight up reducing the amount of damage you take by whatever % is on the gear.
    No, MDB and "magic damage taken -%" both perform the same function (unless MDB has an additional increased resistance property, for which there is no evidence if true), just "magic damage taken" does it better up to the cap, due to the way they accumulate.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuneko
    Magic defense bonus is used in the formula when calculating the difference between MATK and MDEF. Magic damage taken is a %age taken off at the end of that formula, so say if you are gonna take 1800 damage from some magic attack, it will knock however many %age damage off that 1800.

    My cold is getting to my head right now, so I can't really think clearly which is better, but those are the "differences"(1st question of OP).
    This isn't exactly right for a few reasons. First, people often use the term "mdef" as shorthand for saying "magic damage taken" (this thread could be titled, "MDB vs MDEF" or something), and secondly they're both used in the same formula, just different terms of that formula and their places in the calculation are essentially interchangeable (MDB is calculated first, but the difference if you were to swap them is only +/- a couple points of damage due to flooring, and not really essential to the question), but as I said those terms are calculated differently, so the end result is that mdef is always superior to equivalent amounts of MDB, up to the cap.

  6. #6

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by Suiram
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexa
    I thought MDB relates to your resistance of spells and magic damage, whereas Magic Dmg Taken-% is just straight up reducing the amount of damage you take by whatever % is on the gear.
    No, MDB and "magic damage taken -%" both perform the same function (unless MDB has an additional increased resistance property, for which there is no evidence if true), just "magic damage taken" does it better up to the cap, due to the way they accumulate.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuneko
    Magic defense bonus is used in the formula when calculating the difference between MATK and MDEF. Magic damage taken is a %age taken off at the end of that formula, so say if you are gonna take 1800 damage from some magic attack, it will knock however many %age damage off that 1800.

    My cold is getting to my head right now, so I can't really think clearly which is better, but those are the "differences"(1st question of OP).
    This isn't exactly right for a few reasons. First, people often use the term "mdef" as shorthand for saying "magic damage taken" (this thread could be titled, "MDB vs MDEF" or something), and secondly they're both used in the same formula, just different terms of that formula and their places in the calculation are essentially interchangeable (MDB is calculated first, but the difference if you were to swap them is only +/- a couple points of damage due to flooring, and not really essential to the question), but as I said those terms are calculated differently, so the end result is that mdef is always superior to equivalent amounts of MDB, up to the cap.
    all of the following is to the best of my knowledge. feel free to correct me if anyone finds any errors in it.
    in an admittedly flawed analogy, stating that mdb=mag damage down is akin to saying str=attk. they fill different roles but are both values in the same equation and offer similar type results. neither str nor attack though, have any effect on your accuracy, much as neither mdb or mag damage down affect resist rate.

    in addition, i don't think it's sufficient to simply state that mag damage down is strictly superior to mdb. if the enemy had an obscenely high MAB value, say +100, adding 1 mdb would result in a mab modifier of ~1.98 as opposed to 2.0. this results in a roughly 2% reduction in damage taken from the 1 mdb. to my knowledge, however, no mobs that i know of possess such a colossal MAB value, making for all current mobs i can think of, % damage down superior to MAB up to cap on % down.

  7. #7

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    How much MAB the mob has doesn't matter, due to the commutative law of algebra. Even though the exact calculation involved goes "... > take the integer > multiply by MAB/MDB > take the integer > multiply by "magic damage taken" value > take the integer," those integer truncation steps can be ignored when considering in general which is superior, so you end up with MAB/MDB * MDEF, which is the same as MAB * 1/MDB * MDEF, so the MAB can be ignored.

    Which brings me to what I was saying before. If you are comparing a piece that says MDB+X versus one that says "magic damage taken -X%" the latter is superior due to the fact that (1-(X/100)) is going to be greater than 1/(1+(X/100)). Additionally, the relative increases from adding more gear to those respective terms results in accelerating returns from MDEF, and diminishing returns from MDB.


    (Edit: 1-(X/100) isn't exactly right for mdef, since it's actually 1-(Y/256), where Y is usually the largest integer less than or equal to 256*X, but occasionally the least integer greater, don't ask me why. The comparison above is still valid, though.)

    Edit 2: I have some concrete examples that will illustrate what I'm saying, but I'm making my PT wait, so I'll write them up in a couple hours unless someone else provides.

  8. #8

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by Suiram
    How much MAB the mob has doesn't matter, due to the commutative law of algebra. Even though the exact calculation involved goes "... > take the integer > multiply by MAB/MDB > take the integer > multiply by "magic damage taken" value > take the integer," those integer truncation steps can be ignored when considering in general which is superior, so you end up with MAB/MDB * MDEF, which is the same as MAB * 1/MDB * MDEF, so the MAB can be ignored.

    Which brings me to what I was saying before. If you are comparing a piece that says MDB+X versus one that says "magic damage taken -X%" the latter is superior due to the fact that (1-(X/100)) is going to be greater than 1/(1+(X/100)). Additionally, the relative increases from adding more gear to those respective terms results in accelerating returns from MDEF, and diminishing returns from MDB.


    (Edit: 1-(X/100) isn't exactly right for mdef, since it's actually 1-(Y/256), where Y is usually the largest integer less than or equal to 256*X, but occasionally the least integer greater, don't ask me why. The comparison above is still valid, though.)
    yeah. now that i think about it, you're completely right. not sure how i got to my conclusion, but staring at the numbers, it doesn't exactly take a PHD to figure out how flawed my math was. i guess it's true. after you've sat through enough classes on p-adic numbers and such, suddenly you find yourself unable to do basic math. that was an awful fun class though, from what i can remember.

  9. #9

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Okay, so anyway, a concrete example for the OP. Let's say you're without gear or buffs, and not on a job with MDB trait. Getting MDB+10 from gear is going to reduce the damage by 1/1.1 which is 90.9% of the damage you'd otherwise take, compared to -10% in "magic damage taken" gear, which would probably be 25/256 (although I think d. ring is actually 26/256), which is 231/256 = 90.2% of the original damage. However, let's say you already have 10 MDB and -10% damage taken. Adding another 10 MDB is only going to reduce damage by an additional 1.1/1.2 = 91.7%, while adding another 25/256 in magic damage reduction is going to be a 206/231 = 89.2% difference. So as you can see, not only does mdef gear start off better, but the relative benefits increase with the more you add. Considering you'll probably have at least shell 4, you're already starting off at -22% in that term, making that type of gear the winner, even in some cases where the listed values are slightly less than that of an MDB alternative.

  10. #10

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Hey Suiram, start doing things in x/1024 like Kirschy so everything is the same !

  11. #11

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    So far, there's no evidence that it works as 1024s, although you could obviously express them in that way but it seems to make the most sense to use the smallest power of two that adequately represents it as a convention. Maybe they'll add some gear or something that only works out in 512ths/1024ths but I hope that doesn't happen, just because it'd be a pain in the ass to go through and recheck everything.

  12. #12
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    So in consise, is it
    Damage Receive = (Real Damage)(MATK/MDEF)(1-MDamageTaken) ?

    Where's the Shell effect then ? Is it gonna be another term like (1-ShellDamageProtection) ?

  13. #13
    Liquidedust
    Guest

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    So in consise, is it
    Damage Receive = (Real Damage)(MATK/MDEF)(1-MDamageTaken) ?

    Where's the Shell effect then ? Is it gonna be another term like (1-ShellDamageProtection) ?
    Shell is MDEF or are you asking for something else?

  14. #14

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    Where's the Shell effect then ? Is it gonna be another term like (1-ShellDamageProtection) ?
    No, shell acts on the same term as "magic damage taken". That's what I was saying before that since A. you're likely going to have shell already, and B. that term has accelerating returns, then in practice the benefits from gear are actually going to start off slightly better than their stated values. For instance if you have only shell 4 on and no other mdef gear, adding a merman's ring (-4% in description) is actually going to be -5%, and gets better the more you add, capping at 50%.

  15. #15
    Liquidedust
    Guest

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by Suiram
    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    Where's the Shell effect then ? Is it gonna be another term like (1-ShellDamageProtection) ?
    No, shell acts on the same term as "magic damage taken". That's what I was saying before that since A. you're likely going to have shell already, and B. that term has accelerating returns, then in practice the benefits from gear are actually going to start off slightly better than their stated values. For instance if you have only shell 4 on and no other mdef gear, adding a merman's ring (-4% in description) is actually going to be -5%, and gets better the more you add, capping at 50%.
    Now you confused me, I thought "Shell effect" was Magic Defense Bonus/MDEF (or am I confusing your terms here in the thread all of a sudden before I have had morning coffee).

  16. #16

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Ya sorry, ambiguity of terms. As I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, I've grown accustomed to using "mdef" as a shorthand for "magic damage taken" and as opposed to MDB. I didn't notice he had written "MATK/MDEF" above, so I can see how I was seemingly confirming and refuting the same statement lol. Likewise I use "MATK" as generic multiplicative bonus, encompassing anything that boosts damage, including MAB, negative mdef, and in the case of player casters, equipment like elemental staves etc. Maybe I should start using "MDT" as shorthand instead, in any event that's what I meant above, not MDB.

    Edit: Actually I'll start using "TMDA" since that's the convention nivlakian used on the wiki, and another synonym I use for the shell term in conversations with him.

  17. #17
    Relic Shield
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    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    So in consise, is it
    Damage Receive = (Real Damage)(MATK/MDEF)(1-MDamageTaken) ?

    In case it's not already clear due to term ambiguity, it should say:
    Damage Received ~= (Real Damage) * (Magic Attack Bonus) / (Magic Defense Bonus) * (1 - Magic Damage Taken)

    Shell is part of the "Magic Damage Taken" portion.

  18. #18
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Damage Received ~= (Real Damage) * (Magic Attack Bonus) / (Magic Defense Bonus) * (1 - Magic Damage Taken) * (Resist Rate)

    Shell is part of the "Magic Damage Taken" portion.


    Resist is subject to elemental resistance and resulting in 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 factor.

  19. #19

    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    Damage Received ~= (Real Damage) * (Magic Attack Bonus) / (Magic Defense Bonus) * (1 - Magic Damage Taken) * (Resist Rate)

    Shell is part of the "Magic Damage Taken" portion.


    Resist is subject to elemental resistance and resulting in 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 factor.
    I really doubt you needed to tell Nivlakian that, particularly with your being the one who asked the question in the original post to begin with. Resist rate is peripheral to what you were asking anyway.

  20. #20
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Magic Def. Bonus and Magic Damage Taken

    no offense intention, just to make a bottom line for the other newbies.

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