b.kote vs. bracelets line

[fallenleaf]

My sam is 69 and I'm looking into which hands to start using here soon. I have bandomusha kote waiting, but no alky's. I'm curious if any has specifics on how b.kote compare to alky and pallas. If one is better in xp or hnm and if it changes if i'm using hagun or soboro?

I tried searching, didnt see anything specific so I apologize if its there. Thanks

[Breemer]

Most sam I've seen use bracelets for ws and then hachiman hands for tp as to still keep their 6-hit build.

[sephir]

Most sam I've seen use bracelets for ws and then hachiman hands for tp as to still keep their 6-hit build.

Its really personal preference for how you want to go about your 6 hit build. I use Hachiman hands with Fumas to get mine, whereas some friends of mine use Dusk Gloves + Hachiman feet. theres hardly any difference between our setups, I just prefer not to have the -movement speed as well as I get to through a merit from store TP into something else.

But ya, on Sam use bracelet line for WS because we are single hit WS and they are all greatly modified by STR.

[SamanosukeShiva]

use B.Kote for penta thrusts.
bracelet for YGK

[Phraust]

Personally I typically just go for a haste build. A long time ago I found that I could do 7 hits in the time it took a 6 hit build Sam to do the same. Figured 7 hits with more attack, accuracy, etc. Was better than 6 hits in the same time with less. I really haven't found a need to redo my set really.

On the Weaponskill front, I noticed that even though I was parsing about 92% accuracy+ using meat on my TP set, my weaponskills were a dismal 80% even with a relic. You have no Idea how irritating that is. Go go 180,000,000 misses! I recently swapped out some minor gear and stopped using my Alky's, instead I just use AF1+1. The difference between the two is giving up 4 str for 13 dex(the difference between -6 to +7). I don't miss much anymore(except when I really really really need to hit, then of course I miss....)

Melee TP(Toggle on macro for Dex build)
Ame-no-Murakumo
Pole strap
Lightning Bow+1
Askar Zucchetto
Justice Torque
Pixie Earring
Brutal Earring
Askar Korazin
Askar Manopolas
Rajas
Sniper +1(Adroit Ring)
Cerberus Mantle
Swift Belt(Saotome Koshi-Ate)
Byakko's Haidate
Fuma Sune-Ate(Saotome Sune-Ate)

Weaponskill Build:
Ace's Helm
Justice Torque
Fowling Earring
Brutal Earring
Askar Korazin
Myochin Kote +1
Rajas
Flame Ring
Cerberus Mantle
Warwolf Belt
Usukane Hizayoroi
Rutter Sabotons

The only thing I want to change is for my TP build finishing Usukane Feet, B.kote(possibly), Velocious belt, and Forager's/Cerb+1, and I think I will probably drop the dex build toggle on my set. It was really awesome when Sams were buffed up in August, but now I don't notice any difference in the crits that I use to; it's like SE just dropped the Dex to Crit conversion on Sams all together, what was once 15%-17% crit rate is a feeble 10%-12% Dex Build or not... (Fuck you SE...)

[Breemer]

Is it even possible to 7 hit amano after using Kaiten?

[layoneil]

Is it even possible to 7 hit amano after using Kaiten?

most of Kaiten's Store TP is used to offset the delay difference between Amano and other GKTs. you need more Store TP for Amano's 6 hit setup than other GKTs.

[RKenshin]

Yes, Amano has lower delay than a Hagun so it needs a little more Store TP. Although it really wouldn't take much more Store TP from what he already has now; just one gear change is it.

I honestly don't understand why you wouldn't use a 6-hit though. Unless you're unable to afford/obtain some gear upgrades + capped Store TP merits (and there's no debating getting anything over Store TP merits), there's no way you'll get TP slower with a 6-hit than any other set of gear (except maybe a perfected rice ball build which has yet to be attempted to my knowledge). But, you claim to get TP faster than a 6-hit build SAM with a 7-hit? I'm not sure how that's possible. You would need to gain either around 15-20% haste, or 15-20% DA, or 15-20% acc over a 6-hit SAM to just match it in TP gain. None of which are remotely possible, considering it takes one gear change in one slot to get a 6-hit build from Rajas/StoreTP merits/Brutal using Kaiten, all of which you're already wearing. And one gear change will not provide that much of an improvement.

Even fully meritting Zanshin instead, at 90% acc it will at most provide you with an additional 1% of accuracy. Which is an incredible waste of 5 merits IMO.

DEX builds on SAM work horribly as well . I picked up around +57 or so DEX in gear while maintaining a decent haste/acc/6-hit build when the post was first made concerning it (posted results there as well), and it peaked at like 15-16% critical hit-rate on Colibris. Which is shit considering our DoT is our weak point to begin with. In addition the results were rather weak in comparison to my normal ones.

But, to each his own.


EDIT: Beat to it.

[Phraust]

My original Build was almost exclusively geared towards HNM, While Store TP seemed like the obvious choice, I went another path originally; Zanshin/Ikishoten. Mind you I was fully merited in those before the Sam "buff", with that settup I was relaiming abotu 20%-25% of my lost hits with 9 extra TP per. Since I was more likely to have melee accuracy issues on HNM than let's say merit mobs or farm mobs, I felt justified. (FYI: Ridill War for merits, Thf for solo/duoing, Drk for fun).

Now it seems after current observations, that I might be better off with Third Eye merits... I use my Sam more in Assault & Slavage and find myself tanking enough to warrent it, and just build a "Tank build" from that base.

On a more honest note, even w/out storeTP merits, I still pull off a 5/6 hit build just from AoE damage, Ikishoten and getting hit on by mobs on occasion. Been out with plenty of other Sams, and I can say, there's no issue on aquiring TP, I spam more WS that they do by far, I think mainly through said periferal TP gain. Also worth noting a rhetorical question that echo'd through my head when I finally made my choice: "How good is a 6 hit build when I am always waiting for 'the other guy' to get TP 99% of the time..."

While I am not blind to the merit of having STP merited, I just don't see it as useful as most people make it out to be.

[RKenshin]

I mean no offense but Zanshin merits are highly overestimated IMO.

About 2-3 years ago someone made a graph of exactly how useful Zanshin is, and it demonstrated it perfectly. I haven't seen this graph since then and I'd love to have it at disposal, so I just decided to make my own.

This is how much Zanshin merits effect your accuracy percent:

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3513/ffxi3815gm3.jpg
The above percents are slightly in favor of Zanshin as well, considering you have a 15% or higher chance to DA and they do not stack.

Yes, it is really that sad. At 95% accuracy, Zanshin merits will bump you up by a whopping .2% in your hit-rate; to a grand total of 95.2% accuracy. Even at 80% accuracy, which is lower than most well-equiped SAMs will average even without an Amanomurakumo, you're going to get only .8% additional accuracy putting you at 80.8%.

Even with Ikoshoten fully merited combined with Zanshin merits, you're only looking at an average of an additional 3.6 TP per 100 swings with 90% accuracy, provided from those extra Zanshin merits. A SAM 10 Store TP merits will get 3 times as much over the same amount of swings, with the consistancy to provide them with a constant 6-hit setup that the alternative won't.

Although yeah, if you're waiting for the other guy to get TP 99% of the time it's not as great I suppose. But, you can't seriously be waiting 99% of the time? I don't even remember the last time I had to hold TP to SC with someone... And it's a huge waste of the relics potential power when it's strength is in its ability to spam a high damage WS at 100 TP.

In addition, in reality you should be getting TP fast enough that you don't have to wait, and instead they have to wait for you considering it'd result in the highest damage output. SAM tends to get TP at least 20-50% faster than other well-equiped jobs, and in most situations it wouldn't be a problem alternating solo WS > SC WS without too much of your partner's TP being wasted.

[Phraust]

I don't know then.
I was basing it on the assumption that Zanshin Base was roughly 15%(based on other jobs' traits like DA, TA, etc), and merited would be aproximately 20%. There's no real way to parse Zanshin as of yet, but from what I saw [on HNM, and in Dynamis] that I got quite a few 23%TP return hits off Zanshin.

The low accuracy was mainly due to being Pre-2handed buff.

And I will be the first to admit, after the 2handed buff, and subsequent nerf, Zanshin merits are useless. At the time I merited said catigories, they were not.

The Graph seems a bit off to me. Maybe my understanding of Zanshin is not correct, but from what I surmized, it's a 15% chance on missed hits to try again.(In my decision it seemed liek Zanshin proced a shit ton more, but choked it back to 15% based on patterns ot other jobs) SO out of 100 hits, if you are at 80% accuracy lets say, 20% of your hits woudl miss if you were merited in Zanshin, at 80% accuracy, 20% of those missed hits would return at 80% accuracy: 4 hits. I.E. a 5% increase in overall damage, 4 hits returned to the initial 80 = 5%. That was the logic I used going into it. It was the only thing that I could merit that increased the 'top-end' damage, like Haste, DA, and TA does. STP was good, but as stated, it would be wasted on me for I was waiting anyways.

As Accuracy increases however, the Zanshin effect goes down dramatically. At 90% accuracy, I'd only aquire 20% of 10 hits at 90 accuracy: ~1.8 hits --> 2% increase in damage roughly.

At 80% it looked like I would aquire an additional 'free' 36 TP raw form Ikishoten, and at 90% I's get 18% per 80/90 hits respectively, on top of the aditional damage. TP wise that's only 0.45 a hit per 80, and 0.20 per hit at 90, and agreed not the assured ~1 TP a hit per StoreTP merit set. However: Including the missed hits being included, at 80% accuracy getting 4 hits back at 23%TP(Added Ikishoten) = 92 total TP gain, which is a 1.15 TP per hit, Total net gain. At 90% accuracy: a measely .5 TP/hit overall net gain. Again, please note this was different times. and 80% accuracy wasn't all too uncomon for the shit I used SAM on.

Nowadays, I am working on replacing my Zanshin merits for Third Eye, reasons stated above. It just seems more useful over all. (For me)

[RKenshin]

Actually I made a mistake in there that will slightly change the results, but it would again be against Zanshin.

I think the base Zanshin rate is like 10-15% or so as well, but the graph was meant to represent only the additional 5% you would gain through merits. The mistake I made was not accounting for the 10-15% of Zanshin procs that would occur from your base rate, and then take what's left after that and apply the additional 5% from merits. My graph applied just the 5%, which makes the results seem slightly larger due to diminishing returns. I'll probably attempt to fix it later, just got into a class now and the excel sheet I did this on is on my desktop.

As far as how I calculated it, I'll do an example to show:

I'll do this for a large number of hits to avoid fractions, and for 90% accuracy:


Example One: Note, this includes the errors I made that I explained above and in the previous post.

• - Over the course of 10000 hits, that means you'll land 9000 attacks and miss 1000 attacks.
  - Out of those 1000 missed attacks, there will be a 5% chance (fully merited Zanshin) to attack again.
  - This means 50 of those 1000 misses will swing once again.
  - Of those 50 hits, there is still a 90% chance for each to land (Zanshin attacks aren't guaranteed to land).
  - This means overall, you're landing 45 extra hits.
  - This totals at 9045 hits landed.
  - 9045/10000 = a new hit-rate of 90.45% influenced by strictly the 5% Zanshin from merits.
  - Difference of .45% accuracy.

Example Two: Without the error, and including the fact that Zanshin can't proc on a missed hit of DA, this result is much smaller.

• - Over the course of 10000 hits, that means you'll land 9000 attacks and miss 1000 attacks.
  - Out of 10000 hits, 1500 of the attacks will be exempt from Zanshin activating from Double Attacks (15% rate).
  [list:1djwhm6e]- *If DA takes precedence over Zanshin, 3000 hits will be exempt.

- Out of the 1500 hits exempt, 10% will miss. Totaling in 150 attacks Zanshin can't effect.

• - *If DA takes precedence over Zanshin, it's 300 attacks.

- As such, you have 850 attacks for Zanshin to effect.

• - *If DA takes precedence over Zanshin, it's 700 attacks.

- Of the 850, 15% (assuming a 15% Zanshin base rate) will be taken by the innate trait.
- This leaves you with ~722 missed attacks for the 5% from merits to effect.

• - *If DA takes precedence over Zanshin, it's 595 missed attacks.

- 5% activation on 722 missed attacks results in ~36 times it will activate.

• - *If DA takes precedence over Zanshin, it's ~30 times it will activate.

- 10% of those 36 will miss, resulting in a total of ~32 hits.

• - *If DA takes precedence over Zanshin, it's 27 hits.

- This totals at 9032 hits landed.
- 9032 / 10000 = a new hit-rate of 90.32% influenced strictly by Zanshin merits.
- A real difference of .32% accuracy. Or, if DA takes precedence over Zanshin, .27%.[/list:u:1djwhm6e]

So, in reality, the percents are smaller than the graph I made earlier by about 1/3rd. Some time later I'll upload a new graph.

[Phraust]

My major error is being inclusive in my previous results. I was counting the 5% increase in zanshin as the total 20% of it combined wiht base. SO even if my numbers were right, on a merit basis I was flawed. Even if I got 4 hits back on 80% accuracy, only one of them would be due to the merits. I.E. ~1% incrrease in total damage roughly. So yeah, kinda worthless. Diminishing returns aside even.

In short I was wrong based on a false premiss.

[RKenshin]

To be completely honest I was too for a while.

Before seeing that original graph like 2 years ago I thought Zanshin was a LOT better than it actually was... It's kind of sad and hard to believe how little it really effects things. D:

However as one clarification I'm not debating the usefullness of full Ikoshoten merits, while I don't have it fully merited myself (as it would never save a hit to 100 TP with a 6-hit build), it is a pretty awesome trait. I love having Blade Bash too much though; I've stunned a great deal of deadly or annoying TP/magic attacks with it since it was buffed. And then Shiky is just handy.