Absolute Virtue & You: A Learning Experience

[Ambir]

Demo, Run 4:
23:34:02 AV uses Mighty Strikes
Demo counter with 2xManafont, Benediction and Chainspell all in the next 5 sec
23:35:39 AV uses Call Wyvern (97sec later w. Mighty Strikes lasting 30sec)

I'm sorry Ambir, I'm not totally certain what your point is could you please clarify for me?

As a guess I think you may have mistaken the analogy I agreed to with the theory I proposed, I should have been more specific when I agreed to the anology so sorry for that.

To explain, in my original thread I stated
[quote:2z1pnpqx]
if AVs 2-hour timer is less than 1:20, set Av's 2-hour timer to 1:20, otherwise do nothing.

I.e. You would not expect the two hour timer to change unless it was beneficial so you. In the your case 92 seconds is longer than 1:20 (80 seconds) so the timer would not be expected to change.[/quote:2z1pnpqx]

I must admit, I'm having trouble following what the theory being put forward is (even after rereading the past few pages twice). I was just pointing out that there were 2 hrs used here (in resoponse to an AV 2hr) and there was no effect on the next 2hr.

(also, on one of your other questions, after the last Blood Weapon in run 4 (23:41:31) there was:
23:42:55 Call Wyvern
~23:43:57 Invincible (not in log, but called in text)
~23:45:10 Manafont (also not in log but called))


I do have one question though. Since this SE video has been released, has anyone seen the one 2hr that really prevents AV from being beaten, Benediction?

[Maytag]

I do have one question though. Since this SE video has been released, has anyone seen the one 2hr that really prevents AV from being beaten, Benediction?

Yes, I believe there's been several reports of it. It seems to be somewhat rare, though.

What really prevents AV from being beaten, and always has, is Meteor spam at 79%. No one's ever taken him below 79% legit. It's actually very difficult to even reach 79%, let alone get past it. At least with Benediction, it's random, so there's a chance he won't use it.

[Thitaubian Seraph]

I must admit, I'm having trouble following what the theory being put forward is (even after rereading the past few pages twice). I was just pointing out that there were 2 hrs used here (in resoponse to an AV 2hr) and there was no effect on the next 2hr.

The theory proposed by who-ever-you-quoted (you didn't write their name in). Is that:

If AV uses a 2hr such as Soul Voice which would 'start' its 45-65(?) second recast after Soul Voice wears off. Would not be affected by counter/matching/w.e.-you-call-it 2hrs from players because its 'total recast' (SV duration + 45-65seconds) is greater than 120seconds.

Yet If AV uses a 2hr with no duration (or a small duration) meaning duration + 45-65 seconds is less than 120 seconds the 'total recast' would be set to 120 seconds anyway. (this would be the desired effect)

I would just like to ask: Then why did the Devs use 2hrs after Soul Voice themselves?

Don't take this question as trying to discredit the theory, after all I cared enough to explain it to somebody.
The video wasn't a how-to-manual, more like an interesting little clip with some weird things that may or may not act as pointers for us.
...but do keep it in mind.

edit: typo

[Ambir]

I do have one question though. Since this SE video has been released, has anyone seen the one 2hr that really prevents AV from being beaten, Benediction?

Yes, I believe there's been several reports of it. It seems to be somewhat rare, though.

What really prevents AV from being beaten, and always has, is Meteor spam at 79%. No one's ever taken him below 79% legit. It's actually very difficult to even reach 79%, let alone get past it. At least with Benediction, it's random, so there's a chance he won't use it.

There are none in the 5 Demo video's, and none in the runs my LS did last weekend. In just those 2 examples, all of the other 2 hrs are there apart from Benediction, and Mijin. Could you link the recent Benediction.

I'm not sure about the Meteor Spam at 79%, but as I see it, if it gets a chance to Benedicition every minute or so all the way to 0% then it won't be beaten. I'm sure someone can come up with a way of dealing with that spam, as it only happens the once, even if it involves holding it until the Alliance recovers.

In saying that as well, has anyone sucessfully broken it's regen since the SE video either? I noticed Demo claimed to have in one of the videos, but after 10 min of 3 BLM cycle nuking, it ws still at 98%... All the other videos I've seen have had it at just under 100% the whole time.

[Elipse]

I was talking about magic damage down sets with someone from here in PM's. If you want to best and most easily survive chainspell you'll want something like this:

6 tanks. In other words make 2 tank parties and have all of them in range.
Since there are more tanks, hate can be shared around between them. Whoevers getting hit will be cured by one of the other tanks etc. So you don't need to be in a full hp/enmity set up all the time.

While everything you wrote is more or less accurate, I don't see how it helps in chainspell. What you need is the fewest number of tanks so that the damage they take is survivable. For Demo LS the answer to that is 1 tank, and really since you should be able to hit 50% magic reduction without aegis it would be the same for any LS, but if you want to be safe I think 2 would be okay too. What you have to realize is that assuming that they can live through a single spell and be cured right away, the more tanks you add, the more healing is required. The amount of HP needed to cure N tanks with equal stats rises as N rises until you hit 10: 1 > 1.6 > 2.25 > 2.8 > 3.25 > 3.6, etc.

I PM'd Sonomaa orginally to ask for my own thread to start discussions on how best to set up to fight AV in a stable way. I wanted to discuss facts like these magic damage set ups or other related things. Unfortunately he would prefer I keep it in this thread. I only posted a small portion of what the overall strategy would be with the magic damage set ups. I will go into a bit more detail now why I feel the 6 tank set up with magic damage gear would have solved a large majority of Demos fight instability problems.

Let me first say I think Demo has done a great job. In no way shape or form would I say "Demo sucks" or nothing like that. So don't take this as me slamming on Demo. I'm using Demo as the example as to why I think 1-3 tank set ups are weak on AV and why a large tank set up with 6 tanks would be better. I'm going to make my recommendations, and I'm going to point out what I feel to be flaws in Demos single/low tank set up strategic thinking, and what changes I feel will create a more stable fight to produce better future testing.

Let me start off by returning the same comment. While everything you wrote was more or less accurate, let me explain why it not only helps during chainspell but during the entire fight. You belief and reasoning for this strategy is "Mp efficiency" basically. Sounds like this what you're saying because there is extra HP to be cured in total.

You specifically wrote "What you have to realize is that assuming that they can live through a single spell and be cured right away, the more tanks you add, the more healing is required.". Mp efficiency is important in situations upon which your alliance tanks, or players will die due to no mp. However having just watched the #3rd AV attempt you made this is not the case (only video I have saved on my computer)

Every time someone died, it was due to:

1) Tanks die due to overwhelming damage quicker than your mages can respond.
2) Hate balance between tanks is off
3) Hate is all over the place due to cure bombs, resulting in tank deaths and mage deaths.

Tanks or players never died due to no MP. In other words MP efficiency is not the source of your fight instability problems.
We, the ffxi community, value the idea of low manning everything these days. We do it because nothing poses huge danger or overwhelms us like AV does. So our heads are wrapped around the idea of "efficient efficient" but the problems here are hate balance and survival not lack of MP.

Let me give you examples from your video and why I feel having a 6 tank setup with magic down gear would have created a much more stable fight for you. (using video AV3, I know not your newest fight).


Death #1 (Due to problem #2 stated above)
Video time: 1:31
Darkstaruk (pld) gets wing thrust, melee'd 3 times in a row, then wing thrusted and then melee'd again and hit with EES with no shadows. No hate movement for too long.

I believe with 6 tanks in this situation, more cures could have come from pld's instead of outside cure bombs. Hate would have been moved by one of them via flash/job ability thus reducing MP usage because more hits would have been blinked instead of taken by the same tank. Before allowing hit after hit after hit followed by EES. There is no guarentee of course, EES could have killed another by unlucky circumstances however the odds are this could have been blinked by another Pld who flashed after wing thrust etc.

Death #2 (Problem #3 stated above)
Video time: 3:23 Raken (blm?) death.
Nuke pulls hate off Single pld. Pld hate lost because of previous cure bombs/low overall stable hate. AV proceeds to -Ga 5 alliance and then wing thrust hits Raken (400 ish). Team loses a blm to weakness.

Again 6 tank situation provides more hate bouncing between plds = more damage blinked by shadows = less cure bombs from mages = more hate for the plds = Aeroga V hits plds instead of alliance. All tanks proceed to cure themselves providing more hate for the plds/shadows up and bounce hate while recovery.


Death #3/4 (two PLD's) (Problem #1 stated above)
Video Time: 3:49
3) Chainspell -ga5 kills tank 1 Reposado for 1090 damage when he has 951 hp due to being melee'd prior to -ga.

Given damage spread and magic down as I presented it, this tank takes 400 ish instead and lives. Has opportunity to be cured/cure himself. This death could have been prevented. Possibly have been at full HP had more tanks been bouncing hate and more hits absorbed by shadows.

4) On the same -ga 5. Xer takes 904 from same Aeroga IV, then gets hit for 445, lives and then takes 1044 from aeroga IV. Dies.

Again had he been set up properly for magic damage down and split of damage with 6 tanks. He could have taken 400 ish followed by a melee hit, followed by 400 ish again and lived, not died. AV then proceeds to just spam Tornado II/Aero V which is mostly blinked and or cured away by the last remaining tank.


So here you have a chainspell situation in which all your tanks would have likely lived and had higher hate. Don't forget the additional side benefit here, is that each of these tanks would have taken less damage thus losing less hate and would have likely been able to cure themselves to move hate around. This has bigger long term effects on the stability of hate in your fight. More MP used overall? Yes, does it matter? No.

Death #5 (Problem #3 stated above)
Video Time: 5:13
Single Tank loses hate due to cure spam, Sylfa (job? I think rdm) Dies from Aero V for 943 damage.

I'm sure everyone understands at this point. If 6 tanks had been going at this point, hate would not have been lost because More tanks = more hate sharing = more attacks blinked by shadows = less damage taken = less cures needed from mages = more hate for the plds. This spell easily would have been taken by a plds shadow and or direct hit which could easily be cured away.

Death #6/7 ( Are stupid but was a player mistake. Not a strategy issue.)
Video Time: 7:21
Leonock (whm) takes two explosive impulses in a row because hes who is too close to tank.

Slyfa also dies from being too close to tanks. (I think Slyfa was in weakness from a previous death I missed or happened when Aeroga 5 hits alliance on earlier hate loss, not sure. Still was too close for no reason.)

Death #8 (Problem #3)
Video Time: 7:45
Miari (job) dies due to hate loss, unfortunately too far from camera to see exact details. It is clear however AV moves and kills this person. Maybe cured too much. Again preventable with more tanks around. (Xer in weakness and resting, can't see from angle)

Death #9 (Problem #3)
Video Time: 8:24
Balshin dies to enmity loss from tanks. Is melee'd down by AV. I've stated enough to show how this could have been prevented.

Death #10 (Problem #2)
Video Time: 9:30
Tank holding hate and is melee'd multiple times befor Aero V kills him. Can't see damage or hp levels at time of death.

More tanks, more hate distribution, less damage, less cures, high chance tank would have survived if other 5 were doing their job and moved hate after he was hit with melee.

Death #11 (Problem #3)
Video Time: 9:49
Mrtarutaru dies while hate is all over the place. See above why a change in tanking set ups would have solved this issue.

Death #12 (Problem #3)
Video Time: 9:51
Sells (Rdm?) dies to EES while hate is not held by solo tank.

Easily blinked in multitank set up. In fairness, possibility exists that tank would have "ate it" with shadows down. So I can't say this is 100% preventable but a high chance.

Death #13 (Problem #3 and maybe #2)
Video Time: 10:29
Botosi (pld) cures solo tank from within alliance. AV moves to alliance to attack him. After gaining hate, runs out to the solo tank, getting hit (without shadows) from behind with melee attacks, takes Aero V and then a melee shot to kill him.

Had he been tanking on AV, hate would have moved to him with shadows up, blinked most the hits, hate could have bounced to another tank etc. No tank death was necessary at this time.

Death #14
Video Time: 10:50
Clynt (Rdm) is defeated by Absolute Virtue but cannot see in log why. However its clear he was killed after a hate loss by single tank most likely from a cure from Clynt.

See numerous examples above to see why this would have been prevented.



Finally, Deaths begin all over due to wynav spawn and single tank dies. We know how to prevent this now with the kite 2 kill 1 strat, so I won't get into it.

My point here, is that the vast majority of these deaths could have been prevented with a larger tank set up. I'm not trying to say Demo did a bad job here. I'm not saying they suck or anything. They did a fantastic job. All I'm saying is a change in strategy would provide a most stable platform for testing.

In truth which situation really is more mp efficient?

The one with multi tanks spreading hate, blinking many attacks with shadows? Or the one with a single tank getting cure bombed?

The one with multi tanks spreading hate and -ga damage, or the one in which alliance mages are being killed due to single tank hate loss?

Which set up do you think more stable testing could have been done? The one killing someone every minute or the one with hate bouncing and minimal tank losses?

I think overall a new thinking and a new set up is necessary to take on AV. As we get better and know more, we can then play with MP efficiencies. Everyone is free to disagree with me, do what they wish, I'm just trying to pass on a strategy opinion to help you out.

This is the set up that OD (my LS) will use when we next have an AV opportunity:

Party 1:
3x Pld, Rdm, Whm, Brd

Party 2:
3x Pld, Rdm, Whm, Brd

Party 3:
4x Blm 1x Rng 1x Brd (for shadow bind on soul voice)

Outside of this, will be the Wynav kiters and any outside cure support.

All tanks will use magic damage set ups during chainspell and a mix during normal mode. The only 2hr that should wipe an alliance set up like this is Manafont.

/end Wall of stuff... thingy.

[Suiram]

I agree with your motives, and to be honest I too have been trying to think of different ways to fight AV with the premise "assume there's nothing special you can do to weaken him whatsoever," should he pop for us on our next JoL. I only disagree on the matter of how to deal with chainspell, and I don't even disagree entirely. It would seem to me that if you have 2 tanks, geared/buffed well enough that a 2-target aeroga 4 does 50-60% of their max HP, that would probably make it easier than even a single tank, but that adding more would unnecessarily compound the total damage taken, and would require more people than may be feasible to babysit them for the duration of the 2H.

[Valisk]

I must admit, I'm having trouble following what the theory being put forward is (even after rereading the past few pages twice). I was just pointing out that there were 2 hrs used here (in resoponse to an AV 2hr) and there was no effect on the next 2hr.

The theory proposed by who-ever-you-quoted (you didn't write their name in). Is that:

If AV uses a 2hr such as Soul Voice which would 'start' its 45-65(?) second recast after Soul Voice wears off. Would not be affected by counter/matching/w.e.-you-call-it 2hrs from players because its 'total recast' (SV duration + 45-65seconds) is greater than 120seconds.

Yet If AV uses a 2hr with no duration (or a small duration) meaning duration + 45-65 seconds is less than 120 seconds the 'total recast' would be set to 120 seconds anyway. (this would be the desired effect)

I would just like to ask: Then why did the Devs use 2hrs after Soul Voice themselves?

Don't take this question as trying to discredit the theory, after all I cared enough to explain it to somebody.
The video wasn't a how-to-manual, more like an interesting little clip with some weird things that may or may not act as pointers for us.
...but do keep it in mind.

edit: typo

I don't think that was the proposed theory at all. I believe what Breathing was suggesting is that when a PLAYER 2hr's it prevents AV from 2hr'ing for the next 1:20 (80 secs). Or something along those lines.

[Valisk]

Elipse, I understand that we are speculating and attempting to figure out a strat for AV, but 6 tanks just seems so unreasonable. Not that a LS couldn't gather 6, but to use 6 on one mob just seems unrealistic. I realize AV is a unique mob and blah blah blah, but 6 tanks?! 6?! Just seems a little silly to me. Granted nothing else has worked so far, so I really don't have any room to pass judgment but I couldn't help it.

[Zoot]

I agree with your motives, and to be honest I too have been trying to think of different ways to fight AV with the premise "assume there's nothing special you can do to weaken him whatsoever," should he pop for us on our next JoL. I only disagree on the matter of how to deal with chainspell, and I don't even disagree entirely. It would seem to me that if you have 2 tanks, geared/buffed well enough that a 2-target aeroga 4 does 50-60% of their max HP, that would probably make it easier than even a single tank, but that adding more would unnecessarily compound the total damage taken, and would require more people than may be feasible to babysit them for the duration of the 2H.

Elipse covered most of this but I'd like to just add my own two cents on it.

Curing yourself from chainspell is going to be more hate accumulated. AV doesn't do anything but cast during chainspell so this isn't too hard to do. Curaga II can be cast by bard, red mage, and white mage and this is going to basically be all the healing you need throughout chainspell.

You're going to waste a lot more MP keeping two tanks struggling to keep shadows up and bounce hate than you are four or five with equal hate.

More tanks means less time blinking and more time stabilizing hate management (casting flash, casting cures on one another), throughout the battle.

Although two tanks can effectively tank AV for a time, shit happens and someone could (probably is going to) die. Even if your name is Rukenshin.

As you can see in nearly every single attempt at AV with two tanks, there are many deaths that happen to something besides manafont. Most of this is due to hate loss or one or another tank dying. I'm not saying this to be pretentious, I was actually amazed by the reaction time in many of these videos, but this is something that can be avoided.

[Thitaubian Seraph]

...To explain, in my original thread I stated

if AVs 2-hour timer is less than 1:20, set Av's 2-hour timer to 1:20, otherwise do nothing.

I.e. You would not expect the two hour timer to change unless it was beneficial so you. In the your case 92 seconds is longer than 1:20 (80 seconds) so the timer would not be expected to change.

...I don't think that was the proposed theory at all. I believe what Breathing was suggesting is that when a PLAYER 2hr's it prevents AV from 2hr'ing for the next 1:20 (80 secs). Or something along those lines.

He did not say 'prevents'. He was talking about with what frequency AV uses 2hrs, and how to lessen (elongate) the frequency.
(So far it seems he uses a 2hr 45-65 seconds after the effects of his last 2hr are over.)

The way he worded it made it seem like AVs 2hrs would be circumventable by having a (different) player 2hr ever 110-120 seconds to reset AVs '2hr timer'. I don't believe that is what he meant either.

I believe he was thinking of AVs 2hrs all being in a sub-JobAbility 'menu' much like a Scholars JAs, and that they all share a common timer like a Scholars JAs.

So to set AVs '2hr JobAbility recast timer' higher (he said 120seconds unless it was already longer than that), to use a player 2hr.

He did not say 'prevents/locks/w.e.-meaning-completely-avoid'.

edit: typo

[Elipse]

I agree with your motives, and to be honest I too have been trying to think of different ways to fight AV with the premise "assume there's nothing special you can do to weaken him whatsoever," should he pop for us on our next JoL. I only disagree on the matter of how to deal with chainspell, and I don't even disagree entirely. It would seem to me that if you have 2 tanks, geared/buffed well enough that a 2-target aeroga 4 does 50-60% of their max HP, that would probably make it easier than even a single tank, but that adding more would unnecessarily compound the total damage taken, and would require more people than may be feasible to babysit them for the duration of the 2H.

Well the idea as I understand it. Again this is all theory and when in practice can create chaos in an of itself.

The chainspell situation with your tanks. You had 3 tanks on AV at the time. The deaths came from simply too much damage happening at once to single tanks.

Here is where I'm not sure what the advantage to less tanks is? Yes more people can focus on 1-2 tanks better, however the need to focus is reduced in general. What I mean is only the tank with current hate is the one that is in danger during a chainspell. My idea of more tanks reduces the damage per -ga each tank takes (while yes overall more damage is done). By reducing that damage to the 400ish range, each tank is able to more or less babysit themselves. Just toss themselves a cure IV and throw up shadows, (or shadows first cure second whatever). Then flash it off the tank with current hate.

Now the single tank with hate gets the focus of the alliance cures, no one else does. Even if multiple -ga's go off back to back to back, each pld will survive. In fact, if each pld doesn't even bother to cure themselves, it will take 4 -ga's in a row before one dies. You'd have to be a damn slow pld not to react. Keep in mind here, I'm a taru pld whos used to having 1600 hp and 600 mp in a tanking set up. (with food). So i'm used to the idea of a lot of self curing. I see your Galka has a joke of an MP pool (not his fault, just Galka) so this could change the strategy in his case. I can't see hume's, Mithra's, Elvaans not being able to cure IV themselves at that time.

Anyway, I believe the current tank with hate actually has a higher chance of survival because the -ga will have done say 450 damage, followed by say 800 damage tornado II or something. Forgive me the numbers there because I didn't work out tornado II damage with magic damage down.

In AV3 your video. You lost a tank who was currently with hate because the pld with hate before him died to the -ga5. The first pld wouldn't have died, but he would have been cured by alliance, meanwhile Xer would be cure IV himself and hate then would have moved to him. Xer would have been near full HP, the -ga5 would have hit him, he would have lived. He could have then hit :ni and absorbed the 3 single target spells that followed it, got ichi up etc, but in this time frame, the Aegis pld you had there, would have cured himself and then take hate with a flash.

Make sense there? Overall there is much more damage done. However each one takes much less, therefore he doesn't die. Soon as chainspell is done, because it doesn't drag on forever, the blm's and anyone else could have cured up any hp those plds needed. A brd could have run in and applied a Ballad to your plds to recover their MP while bouncing hate with flash.

Does that make sense how that plays out? Or is there something specific I'm missing? The only thing here is your alliance cures have to move with the hate. If Xer has it now, then the aegis dude takes it, they have to move their targets to him and forget about the other plds... then it moves to the mithra and they all forget about the aegis pld etc.. Each pld fends for himself more or less except the one with current hate. (again on that note, with all the single target spells going off, so many more would be absorbed with faster hate movement).

The thing that ties it all together is.. You can't have that low damage from -ga 5 without having all those people in range to eat it. If you really want to look for an alternate, you could use 3 pld tanks and say 3 rdm/nin's that get in range during chainspell. Have each rdm come with a magic damage down set and make sure they have the whm shell V and Baraero with MDB bonus etc. Rdm's can then use stoneskin and self cures to help spread the damage.

So there are lots of alternatives to what I suggested.

What do you think? Ideas?

[Suiram]

Just to be clear I'm not in Demo LS, I hope that I didn't give you that impression in my previous post. Anyhow, I guess I see what you're getting at. In any case would be interesting to see how it works out. One thing I should point out is to correct Zoot above, I believe AV does continue to attack during Chainspell, it seemed to be about one attack round every 1~2 casts going over the log from the Demo #3 video just now.

[Elipse]

Elipse, I understand that we are speculating and attempting to figure out a strat for AV, but 6 tanks just seems so unreasonable. Not that a LS couldn't gather 6, but to use 6 on one mob just seems unrealistic. I realize AV is a unique mob and blah blah blah, but 6 tanks?! 6?! Just seems a little silly to me. Granted nothing else has worked so far, so I really don't have any room to pass judgment but I couldn't help it.

I know 6 seems nuts eh? In truth they don't have to be plds. You can think of other options. You could for example use 4 main tanks and 2 rdm/nin's. Those Rdm/nins would need -% magic damage gear though.

The magic damage spread is important, but I think more important is the hate management that comes after that. Its all the cure bombs that leave these tanks with little to no hate. So many alliance deaths happening because they're cure bombing 1-2 tanks. Stick in more tanks that can cure themselves and the situation will change in flash. Pardon the pun.

Single tank gets slammed, other tanks start curing him. Instead of just a cure landing and that tank continues on getting slammed. The hate will change to another tank (instead of a whm taht just cure bombed him). That tank will then blink the damage and another tank will flash and blink more, while another flash's and blinks more etc. If you just sit there bouncing it around and letting the tanks cure the other tanks as much as possible, the deaths well be kept to a minimum. That also means the chaos of "OMG cure bomb the shit out of that tank" will be reduced and more focus and be spent testing ideas, or doing damage to AV without worries that the blm will die, or that you'll run out of MP.

(Err yes I did think you were in Demo by your response lol. Oh and Suiram is right, he will melee during chainspell)

[Zoot]

I haven't tanked, so to be honest I don't know, but you're probably right. He mostly does cast though so the point does still stand. I guess that would make having a backup tank or two even more important.

Once we got the wynav situation figured out, we used this strategy and we didn't die to anything but Manafont. If someone standing on the sidelines could verify this it'd help. I may have missed a wipe or two, heh.

I'd also like to mention that this worked really well for Hundred Fists and Meikyo as well. Those two aren't all that dangerous but in a shakey-emnity situation they really can be.

[Breathing]

(also, on one of your other questions, after the last Blood Weapon in run 4 (23:41:31) there was:
23:42:55 Call Wyvern
~23:43:57 Invincible (not in log, but called in text)
~23:45:10 Manafont (also not in log but called))

Thanks for that, on a brief look they seem to fit in with the other timer numbers

I must admit, I'm having trouble following what the theory being put forward is (even after rereading the past few pages twice). I was just pointing out that there were 2 hrs used here (in resoponse to an AV 2hr) and there was no effect on the next 2hr.

I'm sorry, I have a tendency to word things poorly which makes them hard to understand.

The basic idea behind the theory is simply that AV seems to have some sort of timer that ticks down and when it reaches 0 his next action will activate his 2-hour. What I was suggesting is that having people 2-hour can bump up this timer back up but there is a limit on how high they can push it (and the limit I specified was 1:20 or 80 seconds).

So if AV's timer is above 80 seconds and a player activates their 2-hour the timer remains the same.
If AV's timer is below 80 seconds and a player uses their 2-hour the timer is bumped up to 80 seconds.

The video wasn't a how-to-manual, more like an interesting little clip with some weird things that may or may not act as pointers for us.
...but do keep it in mind.

I guess my interpretation would be that they were trying to tell the players that there is a link between AVs 2-hours and the players 2-hours. The video was not necessarily to show part of a strategy that should be used, but rather a demonstration of an existing link (i.e. It is another one of SE's *hints*). Soul Voice just happened to be a 2-hour performed by AV while they were making the video.

I should note:
I'm not so sure about 1:20 (80 seconds) as the magic number anymore. I grabbed it as it seemed to apply to the few cases I had been seen but looking at the numbers from japitus from attempt 8. There is an eagle eye shot, which has player 2 hours following and AV uses his 2-hour just 63 seconds after his first. If 1:20 was the magic number you'd really should expect at least a slightly higher result.

I still stand by the possibility that player 2-hours are somehow *topping up* AV's 2-hour timer and that the amount you can top up the timer is somehow limited. It just seems too coincidental that the one Perfect Dodge that lasted 2:12, well in excess of other samples, also happened to be one of the very few instances with a 2-hour in the middle of a timer window.

Either way it should be really easy to test/debunk even with just one person.

A simple test would just be something like let AV 2 hour, wait for the effect to wear off (if any) and activate the a macro like:
/wait 30
/ja "Two hour" <me>

If the time between AV's 2-hour's is well excess of previous samples (45-60 seconds after the effect wears off) you're probably onto a winner, otherwise I fail it ^^.

[AsuraSoup]

(also, on one of your other questions, after the last Blood Weapon in run 4 (23:41:31) there was:
23:42:55 Call Wyvern
~23:43:57 Invincible (not in log, but called in text)
~23:45:10 Manafont (also not in log but called))

Thanks for that, on a brief look they seem to fit in with the other timer numbers

I must admit, I'm having trouble following what the theory being put forward is (even after rereading the past few pages twice). I was just pointing out that there were 2 hrs used here (in resoponse to an AV 2hr) and there was no effect on the next 2hr.

I'm sorry, I have a tendency to word things poorly which makes them hard to understand.

The basic idea behind the theory is simply that AV seems to have some sort of timer that ticks down and when it reaches 0 his next action will activate his 2-hour. What I was suggesting is that having people 2-hour can bump up this timer back up but there is a limit on how high they can push it (and the limit I specified was 1:20 or 80 seconds).

So if AV's timer is above 80 seconds and a player activates their 2-hour the timer remains the same.
If AV's timer is below 80 seconds and a player uses their 2-hour the timer is bumped up to 80 seconds.

The video wasn't a how-to-manual, more like an interesting little clip with some weird things that may or may not act as pointers for us.
...but do keep it in mind.

I guess my interpretation would be that they were trying to tell the players that there is a link between AVs 2-hours and the players 2-hours. The video was not necessarily to show part of a strategy that should be used, but rather a demonstration of an existing link (i.e. It is another one of SE's *hints*). Soul Voice just happened to be a 2-hour performed by AV while they were making the video.

I should note:
I'm not so sure about 1:20 (80 seconds) as the magic number anymore. I grabbed it as it seemed to apply to the few cases I had been seen but looking at the numbers from japitus from attempt 8. There is an eagle eye shot, which has player 2 hours following and AV uses his 2-hour just 63 seconds after his first. If 1:20 was the magic number you'd really should expect at least a slightly higher result.

I still stand by the possibility that player 2-hours are somehow *topping up* AV's 2-hour timer and that the amount you can top up the timer is somehow limited. It just seems too coincidental that the one Perfect Dodge that lasted 2:12, well in excess of other samples, also happened to be one of the very few instances with a 2-hour in the middle of a timer window.

Either way it should be really easy to test/debunk even with just one person.

A simple test would just be something like let AV 2 hour, wait for the effect to wear off (if any) and activate the a macro like:
/wait 30
/ja "Two hour" <me>

If the time between AV's 2-hour's is well excess of previous samples (45-60 seconds after the effect wears off) you're probably onto a winner, otherwise I fail it ^^.

18+ person 2h rotation... SE's trying to give sackholders anurism's

[ashke]

(also, on one of your other questions, after the last Blood Weapon in run 4 (23:41:31) there was:
23:42:55 Call Wyvern
~23:43:57 Invincible (not in log, but called in text)
~23:45:10 Manafont (also not in log but called))

Thanks for that, on a brief look they seem to fit in with the other timer numbers

I must admit, I'm having trouble following what the theory being put forward is (even after rereading the past few pages twice). I was just pointing out that there were 2 hrs used here (in resoponse to an AV 2hr) and there was no effect on the next 2hr.

I'm sorry, I have a tendency to word things poorly which makes them hard to understand.

The basic idea behind the theory is simply that AV seems to have some sort of timer that ticks down and when it reaches 0 his next action will activate his 2-hour. What I was suggesting is that having people 2-hour can bump up this timer back up but there is a limit on how high they can push it (and the limit I specified was 1:20 or 80 seconds).

So if AV's timer is above 80 seconds and a player activates their 2-hour the timer remains the same.
If AV's timer is below 80 seconds and a player uses their 2-hour the timer is bumped up to 80 seconds.

The video wasn't a how-to-manual, more like an interesting little clip with some weird things that may or may not act as pointers for us.
...but do keep it in mind.

I guess my interpretation would be that they were trying to tell the players that there is a link between AVs 2-hours and the players 2-hours. The video was not necessarily to show part of a strategy that should be used, but rather a demonstration of an existing link (i.e. It is another one of SE's *hints*). Soul Voice just happened to be a 2-hour performed by AV while they were making the video.

I should note:
I'm not so sure about 1:20 (80 seconds) as the magic number anymore. I grabbed it as it seemed to apply to the few cases I had been seen but looking at the numbers from japitus from attempt 8. There is an eagle eye shot, which has player 2 hours following and AV uses his 2-hour just 63 seconds after his first. If 1:20 was the magic number you'd really should expect at least a slightly higher result.

I still stand by the possibility that player 2-hours are somehow *topping up* AV's 2-hour timer and that the amount you can top up the timer is somehow limited. It just seems too coincidental that the one Perfect Dodge that lasted 2:12, well in excess of other samples, also happened to be one of the very few instances with a 2-hour in the middle of a timer window.

Either way it should be really easy to test/debunk even with just one person.

A simple test would just be something like let AV 2 hour, wait for the effect to wear off (if any) and activate the a macro like:
/wait 30
/ja "Two hour" <me>

If the time between AV's 2-hour's is well excess of previous samples (45-60 seconds after the effect wears off) you're probably onto a winner, otherwise I fail it ^^.

18+ person 2h rotation... SE's trying to give sackholders anurism's

"what job" was bad enough w/o figuring out who still had two hours.

[Shinsei]

AV is up on Bismarck

a bunch of random JP LS are teamign up to fight it, watching now, i'll post back in abit if i get any new info or w/e...

I'll edit the post as it goes on,

Notes:
- They puled AV from the JoL area to the Palace entrance
- These ppl are extremely unorganized, pretty much to sum it up for you, all they've been doing the past 40mins was just dia claim AV, have 15blms nuke/ga AV and his wynavs with corresponding nukes of the day (which only takes of 2% off AV everytime then he regens back to 100%)
- There is no tank pt for their ally...just random ppl
- AV keeps going unclaimed and goes back to 100%......
- No Jas were used
- No WS were used
- some point they tried to 'counter' AV's 2hr with theirs...saw no effect thereof

just tossing that in there

and basically its a rinse repeat session were AV is pretty much flying all over the place killing random ppl

the first pic, is showing the time difference between AV's 2hrs.....these were not triggered at all but he randomly did it,

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...av_2hrlist.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a.../av5_nukes.jpg


Av eventually randomly Manafonted, was nto triggered, noone casted on it prior to it, nor did anything really...then boom out of nowhere..and MPKed me in the process lol
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...v_manafont.jpg

I'll post more stuff....they not done yet, still going, bbl
[img]

[Nagamaki]

On Chainspell, group tanking does have merit, as long as it is the right type of grouping tanking, with the mages also wearing capped (or at least nearly capped) MDT- gear as well. A WHM could actually be thrown in as an additional tank primarily for dealing with Aeroga IV. You could probably make it work with either a lot of enmity down and a traditional mage sub, but I think WHM/NIN could work out pretty well.

The principle isn't very complicated, the WHM would be able to keep Baraera up easily, and could Curaga bomb on Aeroga IV, with some pretty hefty Cure Potency added compared to just SJ Curaga II (15% clubs, 10% ring that Aeroga IV would end up triggering). That kind of spam would probably pull hate, which is where /NIN comes in. WHM/NIN Fast Cast isn't quite where RDM's is, but you should still be able to absorb enough hits for other tanks to get it back to bouncing. Certainly better survival rate than a BRD/WHM pulling hate at a similar time anyway.

I don't think this would be vital or anything, but it certainly is worth considering if you plan on going with damage spreading for -ga. Also for the record, I'm not a crazy melee WHM, so this isn't some elaborate excuse to melee AV as WHM

[Seditedi]

WHM/NIN Fast Cast isn't quite where RDM's is, but you should still be able to absorb enough hits for other tanks to get it back to bouncing.

WHM doesn't have Fast Cast at all >_>