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  1. #1

    Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Just wondering what everyones opinion on them now is at the momment and what maybe would be a nice change.

  2. #2
    Bagel
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    They both suck as main jobs in XP / merit PTs

  3. #3

    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    I'm opposite of Awoir.

  4. #4

    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    And I'm same opinion as Awoir.

    IMO...

    Dancer: It doesn't offer the damage output enough for a DD role, and it doesn't offer enough buffs/debuffs to cover a WHM/RDM role. In an exp, its uses is limited, the cure potency and stuffs are potent, but it's not like WHM or RDM can do any less. I guess if I am looking for a small party option, I would go for it, for a normal EXP/merit, it's probably the last I would look for. For outside-EXP/merit, I have little experience in most endgame apart from Salvage and Dynamis, but for those 2 events, I can see them being useful for Dynamis farming and I guess for some Salvage farm. It is still a fairly new job however, and I hope they would do something about it.

    The choices for dagger doesn't appeal to me either, as I have THF leveled, leveling DNC will mean that, for a lolDD, I would have to have more inventory-'s, as I can't use my THF's daggers on my DNC(even Sirocco's Kukri would be nice...).

    Scholar: It is like a PUP version of RDM to me, with a very very limited spell list. By PUP, I mean the switching hat for different spell list, which is very similar to the Scholar's idea, you switch hat for PUP's mage, and you switch arts for SCH. The limited spell list made this job more depending on SJ than it has to offer as a SJ, even though SE had said that they want SCH to open up new options for mage's SJ, in the end, with the limitation of spell list, people are forced to go back to the good old three(I would probably sub SCH on WHM though).

    As a main, helix is the spotlight, a low hate high damage spell, but only one at a time kinda limits it: it doesn't do any damage that heavily outweigh our spike damage output on other jobs(BLM, RNG, 2h dd, etc), and to top it off, 1 helix at a time? It's not even overpowered to begin with. Though, helix will see little light in EXP/merit as a normal 6 people group: TP burn, no place for magic damage dealer; manaburn, why don't I get someone else who can deal more damage instantly? So, SCH is really left with the option to do normal parties, which we don't see much anymore...
    Storm spells on the other hand, are only useful for mages, unless they expect us to go buy those sandstorm, fire weather gears just for the rare occasion of having a SCH in party(not like those gears are even that great with latent on)... I really don't see much use for the storm spells. My personal wish is that Storm spells should add a status buff or somesort, like fire for STR.

    However, in the endgame scene(again, only commenting on the areas I am familar with: Dyna and Salvage), SCH will probably see more light than DNC, but the problem still lies in the 1 helix on the monster at a time, which still limits the amount of SCH a group would need.

    So, overall, I don't really like how the jobs are currently.

    EDIT: On an off topic note, do we really need more topic like this?

  5. #5
    A. Body
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    DNC seems more useful in a sub-6 person party, as they likely intended. In a merit party it seems to be a bit lacking. Damage sucks at least. They do have a bit of the "hidden" benefit going for them, as they extra enfeebling n' such does grease the wheels a bit, but really no more than slapping a real DD in there to kill faster/share hate more would tend to.
    The need to build up enfeebles hurts their utility factor as well. Compared to a BRD, COR, or a RDM or something, their contribution isn't really felt.

    SCH is basically like getting a SMN. AoE Stoneskin n' such is nice, and they can do a little damage, but their overall utility in XP is lacking. I'm of the opinion that the job shouldn't have been made in the first place, and instead new spells/JAs be given to WHM/RDM/BLM. Rather than giving SCH a few new toys, a lacking library of the old stuff, and expecting it to change anything.

    The basic problem with SCH is that giving it all the key spells people would want would make things unfair towards older jobs that lack the JAs, and not giving it the spells limits the usefulness...
    SCH is a fifth wheel mage job.

    IMO, much of it comes back to MP and MP recovery. DNC can't be as strong as it should be without becoming imbalanced with regard to MP based support. SCH is just another MP job that can't recover MP quickly enough to compete as a DD, and will just wind up being fitted as a healer in XP, or soloing like BLM nowadays. Only, without Refresh n' Convert, already loses that battle to the current champ of being a reservoir of MP and spamming cures, RDM.

  6. #6

    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    From my own experience, I'm going to disagree.

    Dancers are good in merit/exp PTs. I've had the pleasure of good Dancers in the 60's- and frankly, they keep up. It's a hybrid, but bitching about it is like bitching about a Corsair shooting- COR buffs and shoots, DNC heals and stabs (and hastes your meleers). You don't want them? More for me. Better daggers? Yes, do want.

    Scholars are underdeveloped. That being said, it works well with White Mage, on both sides of the sub/main divide as of now. I've had Scholars main heal in the high 60's effectively- I'd even say better than some WHM's I've had at the same range. It's definitely short of it's potential in far too many ways, though. I'm curious to see what the first update brings.

  7. #7
    Relic Weapons
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    I can't really comment about endgame stuff, mostly because I haven't seen either job functioning in that capacity.

    However, for mid-level parties both scholar and dancer do a good job of alleviating the 'need someone to cast refresh' problem.

    However, at this point I think a lot of their value is in the sub job category. Pld/dnc, nin/dnc, sam/dnc ... even war/dnc seem to be very good for Campaign ops. Whm/sch offers better and more consistent mp savings over whm/blm etc.

    IMO the main weakness of scholar is that it's so bread and butter. It's about half-way between red mage and white mage as a healer, and about half-way between a red mage and a blm as a nuker. However, it lacks the utility spells and overwhelming enfeebling/enhancing spells of rdm.

    The way that dancer works (and it's restriction to B+ skill in a limited selection of daggers), it's unlikely that anyone will ever make it into a really impressive DD. However, having one in the party allows whatever job is supposed to be main healing to focus almost entirely on enhancing and enfeebling.

    In short, I think the problem at this point isn't that the new jobs don't function well, but that they don't fit well into the established party setups (especially in end-game). 4 melees + brd + dnc, no one can cast raise (unless one of the melees is a pld/nin or something). 4 melees + brd + sch, why would you invite the sch over a whm or rdm? n-blms + sch + brd or cor, scholar doesn't really look like they're contributing, and probably can't keep up with the blms without some additional gear.

  8. #8
    Hydra
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    I love /dnc as a support job, which as been advocated by a lot of soloing nins

    O and that ballin monk that soloed ODS mnk/dnc

    I think they were kind of made to be support jobs, /dnc to take place of /nin in some situations and /sch to replace same ol same ol /whm /rdm /blm

    /sch will become more viable if they get the damage mitigation spells that se was thinking about giving them (for blm mostly)

  9. #9
    assburgers
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Isn't Dnc kind of like a healer that doesn't need Refresh?

    That doesn't have any merit?

    How much damage are your melees taking that a Dnc can't keep up in a meripo?

    Got a ragtag bunch of unmerited AH melee's with a lvl 73 in the mix trying to camp in the Skoffins at MJSP? Thats a problem with your leader, not the Dnc.

    Healers basically keep everyone topped off most of the time, and every now and then go "HO SHIT!" and toss a 400-500 Hp cure, unless someone is failing drastically. (or in my case, Third Eye decides "Nope, you gon' die now" and craps out at first anticipate)

    Given that I can keep a melee party going with little outside curing as a fucking War/Dnc at goddamn Aura statues farming Dio's, I'd imagine mobs that don't hit like goddamn freight trains and spam AoE's every 2-4 seconds would be cake.

  10. #10
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    DNC is nice for sub-6 parties, but definitely needs more debuff options, especially something along the lines of a Dispel. The Waltzes should not all be on the same timer; separate timers for Curing Waltzes and Divine & Healing Waltzes should do the trick. Needs more options for Flourishes. Better daggers and something for the off-hand would be appreciated, as well as some resistance to amnesia.

    Awesome subjob, though.

  11. #11
    ٩๏̯͡๏)۶

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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    DNC : Good. It established itself as a very defined role in FFXI, "melee healer", it's a nice subjob, nice main job, will get tweaked to be even better in the next patch. Not very good on Wyrms and such, but they shine in small man events like limbus / dynamis and junk.

    SCH :

    http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2...oucandofa7.jpg

  12. #12
    They're just like us
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lordwafik
    Wow, Its nice to see my feelings on something summed up so nicely.

    I'm not even bothering leveling SCH until the next patch shows whether or not SE realizes that its useless as an SJ. It gives a boost to WHM yes, but nothing that spending the same amount of time farming for better gear wouldn't give me.

  13. #13
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Just hit 74 SCH and I have to say it makes an excellent main healer in parties. I have been main healing the whole way up to 74 with the exception of a few parties. With /whm at higher levels it is only really lacking 2 things that WHM has (with the exception of R2/3) and that is Haste and Stona, Stona it can live without 95% of the time. Scholar has amazing healer power and Accession with 3 Charges at 70+ is like 3 Divine Veils which is better than WHMs once every 10 min use of Divine Seal. Plus with /WHM you get Divine Seal also. Been having fun with it in beseiged hitting 1250+ Cure IVs on people with JAs. So far, no party has complained at having no Haste and I have been getting non stop party invites since I hit 65. Don't even need to seek party to get invites now and have been getting invites over other WHMs my level.

    At 73 I duo'd with a BLM for some exp getting a nice relaxing 9-10k an hr on puddings and with using Ebullience and weather spells I was hitting 950 Tier 3 nukes. I am hoping once I hit 75 I will be able to break 1k Tier 3 nukes under the right circumstances.

    I've yet to fully explore the Helix spells but this is something I will play with at 75 and see what it can do once I have the full spell list and gear available.

    I agree it needs some tweeks such as the weather spells need longer duration/shorter recast and Helix spells need some more work but I definately wouldn't say it is a worthless job. Need to level it before you can comment on it. It also needs access to some better gear like Salvage and Zenith (I want my Dalmy )


    As for DNC, I have only hit level 8 on it and found it kinda fun so far (even tho Elves look retarded dancing) but have exp'd with DNC at all levels alongside my SCH and it definately has some amazing abilities. It does have limited uses in end game tho however we have taken a 75 DNC to things such at Einherjar, Gods etc and it has been useful. Was also a very good support healer on Ix's in Sea when we had around 7-8 of us there straight tanking it. Other DNC I know have said they have main healer merit parties on birds np and can easily keep up in TP to do it.

  14. #14
    A. Body
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Dancers are good in merit/exp PTs. I've had the pleasure of good Dancers in the 60's- and frankly, they keep up. It's a hybrid, but bitching about it is like bitching about a Corsair shooting- COR buffs and shoots, DNC heals and stabs (and hastes your meleers). You don't want them? More for me. Better daggers? Yes, do want.
    Yeah, but what I've seen is DNC parsing like, 12% next to a WAR and NIN in two BRD party. Player had a Maat's cap, so I assume it wasn't -that- badly geared. Hard to say. Party had a RDM as well, so they weren't primary healing.
    That being said, -that- party chained Mamool at the top level of Nyzul fine. We went back to town to spend merits (some at 10) n' get new members and went back, and replaced the DNC, WAR, and BRD who were JP. After returning, we didn't chain Mamool as well and eventually went for birds...
    Obviously, the DRK did more damage, but it seemed like the DNC did add a little somethin' that helped things along. What they didn't do is add a lot of damage directly.

    Since they can't silence, dispel, etc...the RDM was still needed either way.

    Thing is, really, TP moves could have been added to a multitude of jobs and DNC as a seperate job never made either.

  15. #15
    WHERE THE FUCK DID MY CUSTOM TITLE GO
    I DEMAND IT BE RESTORED
    OR A TITLE OF EQUAL OR GREATER VALUE IS PROVIDED
    Both of them. That's just a dick move.

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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Dnc is for a solo sub, and Sch is for moving large groups of poor people with Sneak and Invis-aga

  16. #16

    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia
    Dancers are good in merit/exp PTs. I've had the pleasure of good Dancers in the 60's- and frankly, they keep up. It's a hybrid, but bitching about it is like bitching about a Corsair shooting- COR buffs and shoots, DNC heals and stabs (and hastes your meleers). You don't want them? More for me. Better daggers? Yes, do want.
    [quote:l3lz4r5h]Yeah, but what I've seen is DNC parsing like, 12% next to a WAR and NIN in two BRD party. Player had a Maat's cap, so I assume it wasn't -that- badly geared. Hard to say. Party had a RDM as well, so they weren't primary healing.

    That being said, -that- party chained Mamool at the top level of Nyzul fine.
    While you're at it, he's also giving you Haste Samba and stepping/Flourishing every monster as you go along. Again, it's like judging a COR solely on how many times he shot the mob and ignoring the rolls and QD's. So his raw parse was about 12 percent of the damage. How much was he improving everyone else's? How much backup healing did he save the main heal in MP?


    We went back to town to spend merits (some at 10) n' get new members and went back, and replaced the DNC, WAR, and BRD who were JP. After returning, we didn't chain Mamool as well and eventually went for birds...
    Obviously, the DRK did more damage, but it seemed like the DNC did add a little somethin' that helped things along. What they didn't do is add a lot of damage directly.

    Since they can't silence, dispel, etc...the RDM was still needed either way.

    Thing is, really, TP moves could have been added to a multitude of jobs and DNC as a seperate job never made either.
    [/quote:l3lz4r5h]

    We could also put Convert and Refresh at 37 for RDM and you'd never have to see one for meriting/exp, either. Point is, the DNC was providing something that made the PT run smoothly and chain well, and that's what you want in a job you're inviting to your PT's. If they're doing that, then the job is useful and good and in this case has a unique method of delivering it's benefits.

    Now, if they can fit Scholar in the same way, we have two jobs that are winners, as opposed to Scholar feeling like the poor country cousin to the color mages.

  17. #17

    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tordall
    The way that dancer works (and it's restriction to B+ skill in a limited selection of daggers), it's unlikely that anyone will ever make it into a really impressive DD. However, having one in the party allows whatever job is supposed to be main healing to focus almost entirely on enhancing and enfeebling.
    I can't speak to merit or HNM, but this hits the utility of dancer for normal XP right on the head, and if you're searching for party members it's a very important thing to remember. As someone leveling rdm right now, I know that with a dnc in the party, I barely have to worry about main healing even as the only mage, and can focus on debuffing, hasting, and refreshing. Hell, you could even throw in a smn as your mage and have them dd/buff instead of focus on spamming cure. And hey, they can semi-DD too. Really not a bad combo at all.

    Based on this, it seems to me that having a dnc in party simply gives you more options as to party makeup. I can certainly see assault or salvage groups you could work around this, and the unique nature of their debuffs certainly can aid in limbus/dynamis stuff. Remember that none of the new jobs are really "complete" all the way back to ToAU, and that dnc will certainly continue to be refined & grow, similar to blu, cor, and (hopefully) pup. Same with sch. Of course, if pup never changes, at least we can use it to hold AV indefinitely!

  18. #18
    A. Body
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    We could also put Convert and Refresh at 37 for RDM and you'd never have to see one for meriting/exp, either. Point is, the DNC was providing something that made the PT run smoothly and chain well, and that's what you want in a job you're inviting to your PT's. If they're doing that, then the job is useful and good and in this case has a unique method of delivering it's benefits.
    Yes, but keep in mind it was doing so alongside a RDM and two BRDs already. Since we didn't exactly drop the DNC and try with 5, hard to tell exactly the benefit that she was providing. It was a strong party already.

    I don't doubt the DNC was helping heal, but mostly because the RDM wasn't especially good. Sat in the same gear for Convert, which was around 700MP as an Elvaan. Exactly what other benefits they brought, though I don't doubt there were some, were harder to quantify.

    The thing for me is that I can't see a party actually leaning on a DNC for healing/buffing. They add some to an existing setup, but are not potent enough from what I've seen to actually replace a RDM or WHM, or a BRD or COR. Unlike a COR, they don't contribute enough damage to really be a hybrid either.
    The "problem" as it were is that they complement existing healing/buffing jobs instead of being a viable replacement. There are only so many slots. While that party did fine with two DD/blink tanks, in theory we had the support for two parties...

  19. #19
    Nidhogg
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    From my own personal experience, Dancer is a really good job to have in your party post-30s, maybe earlier. My DNC started to become really efficient at level 20, when it got Quickstep (if that's right), which lowered a mobs evasion and ultimately ended up letting myself hit it more for to get TP. I haven't really seen a Dancer at a more advanced level, so I can't really offer up my opinion on them.

    As for SCH, I have no idea.

  20. #20
    Failed Sex Ed
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    Re: Current Opinions on Scholar and Dancers

    sch makes a pimp sub for whm :3

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