Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Rocl]

Time to print out this post and read it

[The Blackrose]

My take on SCH elemental resists for anyone interested

Kanican - Scholar Guide (Part IV)

That's actually a badass read. Especially when you get to this part:

This is the huge issue right now for Black Mage in my opinion. If you exclude resistances, Scholar is inherently a stronger nuking job for HNM fights due to its incredible MP efficiency. Black Mage has already generally reached the point of resistances not mattering given correct gear - the addition of "better" resistance gear doesn't change anything for it as a job since it has already reached the cap. The introduction of better "resistance gear" can only benefit Scholar, not Black Mage at this point. Considering how close Scholar is already, this is inevitable.

As far as I can tell, Scholar itemization is incomplete, at best. They aren't letting us touch the Salvage, Sky and Einherjar sets. Hell, we even got shafted over on the ZNM sets. WotG isn't finished yet in terms of content, so we're bound to see more stuff coming from it.

However, I'm scared to see what the future holds for us. If this path continues as is, one of two things can be seen coming:

1.) The good path: Black Mage sees a much needed overhaul.
2.) The bad path: Scholar is nuked back into the stone age.

Not only is the scales tipped in our favor in the magical direct damage department at the moment, but the ability to be completely flexible and immediately shift to a Light Arts setup could end up being a major cause for concern. If this is the case, and given SE's track record of ham-fisting in the name of balance, both sides of a Scholar's arsenal could take a major hit if path 2 is followed.

[Kaeko]

I'm generally in favor of game balance whether it's nuking a job or upping another. My recommendation is to just add something for BLM since it hasn't really gotten anything in a long time. If they did happen to nerf SCH say on the level of the old RNG nerf, I would be disappointed but not like angry or anything. Just have to re-evaluate.

I was sort of hard on BLM in the post, but I still consider it my favorite job. I solo on it almost exclusively still, for reasons I alluded to at the end but didn't really get into. Even though BLM hasn't received a job specific buff in a long time (retrace doesn't count), it has gotten stronger still due to gear increases. I pretty much win Apollyon NW every time now on BLM and it's become a sort of joke zone. So even though SCH is a better endgame events (groups) nuker for single targets, BLM is still a very very strong job, especially in solo. They also work better when hoarded due to the strength of multiple stunners and stacking AoE damage.

If you simply up the damage BLM does, you will break it ever further in terms of soloing. If you do not up the damage, SCH will overtake it as the ideal nuker due to MP efficiency. It's honestly not an easy situation unless you're willing to just nuke the SCH job and start over like they did RNG.

[The Blackrose]

If you simply up the damage BLM does, you will break it ever further in terms of soloing. If you do not up the damage, SCH will overtake it as the ideal nuker due to MP efficiency. It's honestly not an easy situation unless you're willing to just nuke the SCH job and start over like they did RNG.

All too true.

Sometimes I do wonder why SE decided to give us access to Tier 4 instead of going back and taking a better look at the Helix series and keeping us at Tier 3. Helices were billed as one of the defining features of Scholar but I've been finding results on them incredibly varying (and rather lacking). I was rather disappointed that they didn't continue to travel down this road, instead opting to simply toss us Helix Attack/Accuracy as a Category 1 and be done with it.

But yes, Black Mage is way overdue for something. However, Monk was the same way and look what they gave them: Footwork.

[Acturus]

But yes, Black Mage is way overdue for something. However, Monk was the same way and look what they gave them: Footwork.

Monk never needed anything though. MNK was already a long-used meriting class that excelled in pretty much everything but HNM fights where 2-handed users would make better use of their recently added acc/att bonus.

The troubles with BLM compared to SCH, on the other hand, are just one more example of how SE can't seem to keep a good finger on the pulse of the mage community.

[Toth]

Speaking as both a SCH and BLM, I found Kanican's scholar guide to be an excellent read and really shed some light on questions I myself had about how far SCH can go nuking wise and I was intrigued to hear how close SCH really can come to being on par with my BLM's output. However, there is something about SCH that I feel always hold me back and that is I feel I am put in spots in alliances more for my AoE abilities, from weather to stoneskinga, than for for my damage ability. I find it very difficult to juggle keeping up AoE buffs and then switching to nuking mode at most events because mages NEVER STAND STILL.

Any pointers that you guys can share?

[LD]

I find it very difficult to juggle keeping up AoE buffs and then switching to nuking mode at most events because mages NEVER STAND STILL.

In my experience, everyone likes to jog about when you're doing something, but mages rarely HAVE to move, so it's easier to get them all in AOE range. You know what's annoying? Buffing melee on Ixion. They run in every fucking direction imaginable except to where I am.



BLM solution is quite simple.
If SCH is the MNK of mages, then BLM is the DRK; One is faster and more balanced, the other has a higher potential for damage, but with a cost (delay, HP, kraken). Give BLM an exceedingly powerful spell (at least 5k, very low resist rate), but instead of making the MP cost absurdly high, making it even less MP-efficient, make the recast much longer than anything else, say 4-10 minutes? With that, BLM would have an anchor for their damage output that, with regular usage of lesser spells, SCH would never be able to touch. The recast would keep BLM from abusing it too much, the damage would force them to really pay attention to hate, and SCH would still be more efficient with its MP. Just like DRK's Souleater, your damage output spikes, but now you have to worry more about hate and the only way for you to really outshine your peers is to make regular use of it.


Problem with all of that is /SCH, ironically. Dropping damage like that isn't impossible to slip out of, but putting up a solid defense beforehand is just common sense. If /SCH's defensive abilities were ever improved, Parsimony & Alacrity would make the spell broken on anything you don't have to worry about hate on. Since the recast is so long, you'd always have them ready for the spell.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Let me start off by stating that I am not a SCH, but I am leveling it and am very interested in many of the nuances that the job brings to the game. Let me also state that I have not read through this entire thread or any other SCH thread as my interest in this job has only just began (yes, I know I'm late for the train).

Looking at the job as a whole, I felt the same way Toth. Coming from a relatively large linkshell (63 active members), we don't often small man things, and since probably 1/4 of the linkshell has BLM and 4/5s of those BLMs have Morrigan's Robe/Sorcerer's Petasos and are generally well-gear and above average to great players. Also, a handful of our BLM have SCH leveled too, but given the choice between the two, it's no contest. SCH is a dead end job for us on that side of the spectrum.

So the only part that really remained during my analysis was to look at the support it offered. Clearly, in a party that has a WHM/SCH or a RDM (mainly to provide Haste and be self-sufficient), the SCH pairs up better with either of those jobs than those jobs pair with each other. It sort of "fills the missing gap" so-to-speak. I think that's obvious as it does what a SMN can do, and about as often, but offers modifiable buffs and cures well, two areas where SMN fell short and therefore, was overlooked in that capacity for many years.

IMO, which is admittedly narrow, I think it does a lot better on the light arts end. Being able to phalanx/stoneskin your entire party for twice the cost of the normal spell's MP as needed is such a great thing. Having Cure IV and the other tricks in its bag make this job partner so well with a WHM or RDM in a melee pt. In a tank party, you'll still need that RDM to refresh tanks, but hey, it's a decent replacement for a WHM or maybe the second bard, depending on the rest of your party.

[Kaeko]

The issue is that it's very very difficult to gear SCH in a way that makes it competitive resist-wise. It's only after SCH does this that it becomes competitive or surpasses BLM. Also, SCH is a much newer job so there are less out there and less time to obtain the necessary gear. Even more, it's not as well accepted.

I'm almost always in light arts when I do SCH at events. If I do want to nuke it is stronger than my BLM for things like all 3 kings, Sandworm NMs, and most other misc. events.

Really the fact that no new job past Zilart has ever really been that accepted in endgame will probably keep SCH 'balanced' in endgame usage. I agree that most LSs consider it a dead-end job right now. It's probably better this way.

[astura]

How would you feel about using obi's as part as a magic Resistance build for sch? Some test earlier in this thread showed they helped to bump helix duration up as much as klimaform (and caped it out 90% the time with) and add macc almost equal to klimaform. Given that most talks of resist build include klimaform and you need the weather for it, is it worth looking into? I ask this because if its significant enough you might be able to move some macc/ele skill gear around for int. (example maybe not use genie gages and use yigit hands as one example)

[The Blackrose]

I guess I have to consider myself lucky then. Unless it's a quick zerg like KV or Bv2, I'm always on SCH in LS. My SAM gear (and Monk gear now) tends to collect a lot of dust these days. Only time my BLM comes out is if I'm off to solo something, which even then I usually play around on SCH for that as well.

I'm finding myself stuck 50/50 in between Tank and BLM parties. Tank party loves the damage prevention and the patch healing, while putting a SCH with 1 Corsair and 4 Black Mages has been a force to be reckoned with. So I find myself doing the wide gamut of things.

EDIT:

I've always been bad on the Obi stuff, someone could probably explain it better than me.

[LD]

When it comes to SCH, there's only 2 things I'd want to adjust: Increase Accession/Manifestation radius and when using those JAs, make self-target buffs PT-member target, so I don't have to move into rape range every time I wanna cast buff-ga.

When dealing with stuff you wanna stay away from, it's very annoying running in damn near right next to your wards when a BRD can stand in the middle of a city block and buff 2 people on opposite ends.

[The Blackrose]

I can get behind an adjustment to the radius, but allowing targeting on stuff like Phalanx and Stoneskin probably doesn't sit well with the devs for the same reason Bar-ra isn't party target. Something about wanting mages to get into dangerous situations or something like that, if I recall the proper interview correctly.

And considering now they're relooking RDM and WHM melee capabilities... /ducks

[Acturus]

When it comes to SCH, there's only 2 things I'd want to adjust: Increase Accession/Manifestation radius and when using those JAs, make self-target buffs PT-member target, so I don't have to move into rape range every time I wanna cast buff-ga.

When dealing with stuff you wanna stay away from, it's very annoying running in damn near right next to your wards when a BRD can stand in the middle of a city block and buff 2 people on opposite ends.

My Summoner and my Scholar agree with this statement.

[Toth]

Really the fact that no new job past Zilart has ever really been that accepted in endgame will probably keep SCH 'balanced' in endgame usage. I agree that most LSs consider it a dead-end job right now. It's probably better this way.

One of the truest things said. No matter how good a decent ToAU or WoTG job, people are still going to gravitate to the old standbys and worse, work out obscene calculations why having x job will be better than any of the others by x damage/minute. The game has become about killing mobs 15 secs faster than having fun for a lot of people and that's a real shame...

[shukuffxi]

With Threnody, Cream Puff, no INT merits, SCH75/RDM37 (Hume), Thunderstorm + Klimaform = 0 resists on one Tiamat recently. Without Klimaform, about 3/10 resists, usually as it wears off, though some didn't have Threnody. Without the Cream Puff, and no Klimaform = resists were more frequent. 8/8 Ele Skill merits, AF2 head, the rest ideal gear. I didn't even get almost any resists with Klima/Thunder that I could put on Pendant as well.

[Toth]

So I was going over Kaeko's data using my sch and comparing gear. What I found was just how difficult Kaeko said getting this ideal set would be. I have most high end mage equipment and while the elemental skill is not too hard to get, it is still difficult to break 320 as SCH. For example, I use Goliard cuffs for nuking and that sets my ES with the af2 hat (some day lol) to be 313. Even sacrificing that for Genie sticks me at 317. INT fares better but not by much. Sacrificing certain INT pieces for ES, I can just barely hit 120 INT with a cream puff.

Meanwhile, with my BLM, it is very easy to hit 320/120INT with fewer gear sacrifices. As much as I would like to say that SCH can nuke better than a well geared BLM when it comes to MP usage to damage, be aware that the gear required to reach this level is either very costly or very difficult to obtain.

I am more intrigued to see just how much of weather, klimaform, and focalization (merit wise) are needed to turn Kaeko's budget ES set into a consistent nuking set.

[Kaeko]

If you use Klimaform this already works more than well.

This would still limit you, but it doesn't really bother you for things where you nuke at specific times like Tiamat our Ouryu.

[shukuffxi]

I don't see it as being that hard to do. You don't need to hit 320. I was nuking Tiamat in under 310, with heavier INT and rarely seeing resists, when I could activate my pendant, I swapped that in too, with Threnody/Weather/Puffs you're pretty good, let alone Klimaform. I do use Genie Gages, but if I had Goliard Cuffs I might use those instead, my damage hands are Yigit right now. The difference between AF2 head and Elite Beret+1 isn't that large, and I don't have an AF1+1 body yet. No Threnody would be problematic, but on major fights threnody is usually on.

[Dawin]

Kaeko, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I think they got the power level of Scholar's just right.

My other 2 jobs are Bard and Thief, so I think I have a good understanding of what overpowered and underpowered jobs are like. Bard was overpowered because you would be gimped in sooo many situations if you didn't have a bard. The addition of Corsair, Dancer, Repose, and better accuracy gear for DDs have changed Bard from overpowered, to very very powerful. Thief as well was severely underpowered before feint, the dagger upgrade and the TK change, and even now is still underpowered.

There are no situations I can think of where a Scholar can't be replaced by another job without causing a huge setback. There are no situations where it's just "OMFG this is so easy now" with Scholar.

Disclaimer: I love Scholar, and have never once regretted leveling it over other jobs like BLM, RDM and WHM.

I think you're forgetting a lot of the drawbacks.

In Limbus BLM is better in part because Manafont is so much stronger than Tabula Rasa. Given that you can use a 2 hour every 15 or 20 minutes in NW, this is huge. Also, stun is very important for this.

I love Scholar in Dynamis, but you can't replace all the BLMs with SCHs. Sure, Manifestation is great for sleeps, but not only does it double our recast timer, it also gives us access to only 2 sleep spells as opposed to a BLMs 4. Also, the half second it takes to activate Mani is actually pretty crucial. BLMs are superior for crowd control in Dynamis. Sure, 1 SCH is great for increased nuke efficiency, the occasional graviga, and stormsurge. But the bottom line is that a Dynamis without BLMs is severely gimped. A Dynamis without SCHs is no real loss.

Our MP efficiency is great, but I think a lot of people forget about the drawbacks. With dark arts we get a 10% bonus on dark spells, but a 20% penalty on white magic. Not having fulltime access to Erase, etc. is a huge drawback too.

You talk about SCH vs BLM against things like Tiamet and Ooryu. The benefit of SCH having more efficient nukes doesn't compare to the ease of getting 320/120 with BLM, especially when you consider how much resting time you have during these fights (very few groups nuke during both air and ground). I think the average BLM will way outdamage the average SCH on this fight due to being able to stack a ton more MAB while still having 320/120.

SCH could never solo Brothers ENM because of no ES sleep. Etc.

Don't forget about D2, retrace, aga's, elemental seal, innate MAB bonus, all the better gear that BLM has access to as well.

If you wanted to argue that SCH made a job underpowered, I think you should talk about WHMs which already were second to RDMs in most situations. However, Haste alone is enough to give WHMs superiority to SCH in exp parties and many other situations. I generally prefer SCH + RDM over WHM + RDM, but there will still always be drawbacks. Not being able to help the RDM with his haste/refresh cycle (especially annoying for the RDM if it's a double PLD tank PT). Needing more cells in salvage, etc.

So all this being said, I absolutely love SCH because of it's versatility. But in no way shape or form does it make BLM an underpowered or unneeded job. WHM on the other hand... you decide.