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  1. #1
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    How long before bots go the way of windower

    When windower first started becoming popular, it was very taboo to talk about. Yes, it is only affecting you, and you arent infringing on other people's ffxi experience, but nonetheless, it was still against the ToS. Anyone posting on a forum about it was ripped apart by most of the community (granted i was still frequenting lolalla at the time). Now it is mainstream, if you dont use it, chances are you are on ps2. And even people who choose not to, you still know everyone does, and its widely accepted.

    I am starting to see the same attitude towards botting. Anytime anyone comes up with proof of someone else botting it is met with replies of "so who cares? everyone bots." But more or less it is still taboo, if people are proved botting, its nice for a good laugh, but most people dont care. And no, im not naive enough to think that every linkshell doesnt have a few rogue bots here and there, but some linkshells are so open about it and its so widely used that its sickening. Bragging on forums how great their bots are, how they never miss claim etc... The more accepted it is, the more people are going to use them. The more people who use them will grow exponentially because people have to try to keep an advantage.

    So like the subject says... How long before bots are so widely used that proving someone botting will be as laughable as proving they use windower?

  2. #2
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    -1337/0 minutes ago.

  3. #3
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    1.- windower is still a break to ToS

    2.- Bots will be widely used as long as SE uses the same method for HNM spawns and makes HNMs with desirable drops.
    2a.- This assuming that SE keeps the claim system the same.

  4. #4
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    I think that's a fair point to make. Especially on BG, I can think of a couple popular posters here who not only gloat about the fact that they bot, but are revered and accepted for it. The thinking is that every other HNM LS does it, so there will never be any penalty for it and it can continue.

    I'm a late convert to windower, and my own linkshell still makes jokes about how it's a "program-that-must-not-be-named" and how none of us use it. I suppose for the bigger LS, bots operate in the same capacity.

  5. #5
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    I think the sea change in opinion really started to happen when Taj posted his infamous list. With the exception of a few on that list who still contend that they never botted and a handful of others who were genuinely remorseful of their actions, the vast majority simply responded with some variation of "Yeah I bot, so what? Everyone else does" after they were outed. Eventually enough of them said it that this mentality started to spread and the public's perception started to change, which brings us to the situation today.

    Obviously there is no 100% foolproof way to make sure there are never any botters in your shell. IMO, that's no reason to not have a very strict anti-botting policy, though, and to make it clear to members that cheating at the game to give your shell an unfair edge over those who don't is not acceptable or sportsmanlike behavior, regardless of whether you really believe the "everyone else bots" mantra. Your shell will be less likely to attract botters if they know that they'll be kicked if discovered, rather than a shell where the leadership either condones it or has a hands-off policy towards it.

  6. #6
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    I don't believe in the mantra of "everyone does it." I think that's just a convenient way for botters to excuse their actions, and a cynical view of legit players who continue to be outclaimed by said botters. I hate bots with a fiery passion, because they ruin the gameplay for people just as much as RMT does. RMT can keep you from claiming the NM that you want, or getting to the mining points, or whatever, for however long. Bots do the same thing. That being said, I have no doubt a lot of people do bot. I even think it happens in good linkshells, led by good people who would never knowingly allow it, because if one player bots and don't say anything about it, how is the ls leader going to know unless they do something extraordinary revealing (pos hacks across an area, clearly afk vokes something, etc)? I believe in a zero-tolerance rule for bots in a shell, like the poster before me said, it's less likely to attract botters - but I do believe it still happens.

    I think it's a shame some people are willing to ruin other people's game experience just to have a bigger chance at getting that item first. Everyone wants those items, otherwise they wouldn't be at the camps, but honestly - nowadays, actually claiming is for the most part bigger than getting a valuable drop.

  7. #7
    A. Body
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylen
    I think the sea change in opinion really started to happen when Taj posted his infamous list.
    Not really. Even then the lulz were only from those who (often fervently) claimed that they didn't bot, would never bot, and looked down on those who did.

  8. #8

    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    3 years too late?

  9. #9
    My Little Ixion
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Those who use "everyone does it" are looking for an excuse to justify botting for their own use. It's that simple.

  10. #10

    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Quote Originally Posted by Starr
    3 years too late?
    Hardly.. lol
    Bots aren't used by even half of the end game population at this point in time.

  11. #11
    A. Body
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo401
    Those who use "everyone does it" are looking for an excuse to justify botting for their own use. It's that simple.
    Not necessarily. I don't bot but the idea of calling someone out on it for reasons other than hypocrisy has been a non-issue imho for a good long time now.

  12. #12
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    I think, and I'm contributing to the conversation, not trying to antagonize you guys so keep it in your pants, many of you have the mentality that here and there one person in a LS bots, it's a small thing, etc etc.

    The reality of it is that on most servers I can name off the top of my head I can think of LS that openly bot, condone botting, and have the majority of their LS as botters. I can't speak for other LS but I don't /think/ it is common practice to pressure your members into botting, more of a 'the majority of the LS is risking punishment mainly to get people like us gear, maybe we should do our part, they have ridills, I don't' is the expected mentality. Some people leech, some don't, I digress, I don't perceive that 1-2 bots in an otherwise normal LS as a problem, if you do, chances are you have no idea how a bot works.

    1-2 bots in a LS going up against normal competition for a NM is not an advantage, at all, that's like flipping 2 12-sides dice and expecting to either get double 1's or double 2's. Windower breaks the game more than botting ever could, so what, I can claim fafnir while asleep, wake up and kill it, or I can hear that he popped, wake up, see it claimed to JP and go back to sleep. Windower, as a whole, revolutionizes the game in ways not even remotely possible by claiming an extra handful of NMs above the norm, so, if you're really taking a stance on fair-play then our (my) beloved windower needs to go long before the bots do.

    It's all an unfair advantage, but the perception of just how unfair it is varies more and more once you realize what is going on, half of the 'accepted programs' on windower forums? Yeah, they rival the awesomeness of poshacking.

    But, as an educational, informational, etc note for all of you, botting is bad etc etc we break the game etc etc, the friendly mom & pop LS that shows up to DA and has 2-3 bots in it is not going to ever be noticeable, unless YOUR LS members are sitting there hoping somebody else claims it for them because they don't feel like trying, which is another situation in itself. The claim patch was the best thing SE could've done about bots short of fixing the way the NMs spawn, gotta give them some credit.

  13. #13
    Groinlonger
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Butter it up all you want, but Windower isn't nearly as 'bad' as botting. Windower enhances the game for the user while not affecting anybody else's gameplay(although with some of the recent plugins I'm starting to question this.) Bots enhance the game for the user but while negatively affecting others' gameplay by giving them an unfair advantage over said players. They might be the same in regards to the ToS, but completely different in how they affect the game.

    Either way, I don't really care. Botting comes with the risk of getting banned so I don't think it will ever be as widespread as Windower is now.

  14. #14
    DEUS VULT
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Windower means I'm constantly looking at BG while on autorun, which gives walls a huge advantage.

  15. #15
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Botting gives essentially the same advantage over normal players as windower macros give over normal macros.

    Before windower macros my RDM was very effective, it just took 3 macro presses to cast paralyze. With windower macros, I get to press one macro. Actual advantage? None. Perceived advantage? Well, 2 years ago I would have been called a cheater by most. Today, not at all.

    Without botting, you have to try. With botting, you don't. Pre-claim-patch the arguments against botting stand up well, as it was certainly an advantage. Since I came back I don't bot, I've read way too many stories of bannings to attempt it. I try to manual claim every time I'm in Aery, and most of the time I cast too early. Unless you have 5+ people botting, all with staggered delays, you aren't really seeing a benefit from it.

    In my whole career as RDM I had all of like 6 claims, and I probably tried botting for like 9-12 months and never claimed once. Always too early/too late. It's much more fun to try and just do it manually.

  16. #16
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    The reason people react the way they do ("gloatingly") regarding botting is that people are so quick to throw out the accusation. I get it left and right and what runs through my head is "Why would I be stupid enough to even remotely risk my account to bot? I already have a suspension, I don't even want to sneeze the wrong way" but honestly all you're going to get by being defensive is the same accusation the next day or even 3 seconds later anyway so why even bother? If someone thinks you're botting it doesn't matter if you actually are or arent, why put in the time and effort to refute it.

    As for the actual situation, some LSes openly bot, some put up the guise of being totally against it but would rather keep their fingers in their ears, and some just don't care either way. After 3+ years of this shit and bordering on a capped out huge roster LS you only really start to give a damn if shit doesn't even out over a decent enough period of time. So you may go a month without touching a nidhogg, then you claim 2 or 3 pops either in a row or in a short span of time and suddenly it just doesn't matter. I'm lucky enough to be on a server where even with shells that have openly botted and continue to do so this happens frequently, not to mention just picking off wipes on worldspawns.

  17. #17
    Subduer of the Squenix
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    For the record, I do use windower and I do not bot.

    However, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

    People say that windower doesn't give you an advantage over other players while botting does. I'd have to say that I disagree with this. Windower gives you a huge advantage over people who can't use it (like the people - they do exist, who play on PS2). When I first got windower, it was exclusively to brouse the web while playing. Then I learned how to use windower macros and that definitely changed how I play the game. Everything is both faster and easier with windower. In FFXI that IS an advantage. I also know people who have written more advanced scripts using windower to the extent that they can follow someone and /assist and autoengage a mob (basically fighting while semi-afk). Looping scripts (no, not bots) can be used on multiple windows, on the same PC to claim a NM. Is it an unfair advantage over someone who has a PS2 account? I'd say it is.

    Where the line is drawn in terms of "cheating" is really far more fuzzy than most of us windower addicts choose to believe. While I do belive that there IS a difference between windower and botting and with my own personal video game morality code I have chosen NOT to bot and TO use windower.. I don't think that it's really as cut and dry as most people make it out to be.

  18. #18
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    The only thing I dont get about the whole cheating thing the OP touched on.

    We define cheating as something that violates the ToS. If that's the case, then people should really be just as hard and emo on windower usage as they are on botting, because both break the ToS. It makes no sense, and is hypocritical to call someone out for botting when you yourself use the windower if this is the case.

    However, maybe most don't really define cheating as "something that violates the ToS". Instead they pick and choose which parts of the ToS best suit their needs, and define those as cheating. Which is how we get the viewpoint, that its only cheating if it negatively impacts other players.

    So basically it comes down to two positions:

    1. Any violation of the ToS is cheating. All botters and all windower users are just as guilty.

    2. Only some violations of the ToS are cheating. Of which, it is only those things that negatively impact the play of others. Only botters/pos/etc. cheat.


    I personally think both are cheating. And assigning varying levels of evilness to different forms of cheating is a whole different argument, which in the end it still comes down to both methods are regarded as cheating.

  19. #19
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    I think people are rather quick to apply a 'moral' palette to things, and once that moral gradient is in place, proceed to staplegun their emotions to it.

    I use windower because it affords me the capacity to not get hand cramps hitting three macros to switch gear. I use windower to browse BG while my character attempts to grind a hole in a wall with her face.

    I don't bot because I can't imagine it would be particularily fun. Gear you -have- isn't fun. Gear you're getting is. Anticipation is always better.

  20. #20
    THAT MACHINE IS NOT A SIR, YOU HAVE TO CALL IT "MR. MACHINE"
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    Re: How long before bots go the way of windower

    Quote Originally Posted by isladar
    Gear you -have- isn't fun. Gear you're getting is. Anticipation is always better.

    I


    beg


    to


    differ



    http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/image...sc/haidate.gif

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