Martial Arts, Dual Wield, and haste cap.

[fuergrissa]

Question came up, is the 80% haste cap only for two handed weapons. Most likely not, but how can you hit it without hasso / desperate blows (2handed onry)? well the only way is possible with Improved Dual Wield or Martial Arts, so my question is:

Is DW/MA
calculated before haste
calculated after haste
The same as haste in calculations
restricted by the 80% cap

There seems to be no way that it could be calculated the same as haste, otherwise you could be over 100% (43%magic 25%equip 35% Dual Wield)

999 delay (lol stage 1 and 2 relic) x2 = 2000x .32 (68%haste) = 640 delay * .65 (35%DW) = 416 Delay / 563 (if capped at 80%)

Is there any way to test this without using the frame counting method? And if you do use that method can you be sure that fraps will capture all 30 frames per second?

*edit* for nar-nar-ism

[Wizerd]

Question came up, is the 80% haste cap only for two handed weapons. Most likely not, but how can you hit it without hasso / desperate blows (2handed onry)? well the only way is possible with Improved Dual Wield or Martial Arts, so my question is:

Is DW/MA
calculated before haste
calculated after haste
The same as haste in calculations
restricted by the 80% cap

There seems to be no way that it could be calculated the same as haste, otherwise you could be over 100% (43%magic 25%equip 35% Dual Wield)

Calculated before haste 999 delay (lol stage 1 and 2 relic) x2 = 2000x.65 (35% DW) = 1150 delay * .32 (68%haste) = 368 Delay / 633 (if capped at 80%)

Calculated after haste 999 delay (lol stage 1 and 2 relic) x2 = 2000x .32 (68%haste) = 640 delay * .65 (35%DW) = 416 Delay / 563 (if capped at 80%)

Is there any way to test this without using the frame counting method? And if you do use that method can you be sure that fraps will capture all 30 frames per second?

I'm not entirely sure how you got 2000 x 0.65 = 1150... because it most certainly equals 1300. The best that can be said is that it's calculated separately from Haste, because whether you calculate it before or after makes no difference until you start dealing with truncating at step. Even then, it'll only affect the delay by 1 or 2.

It's simply calculated separately.

[Ferien]

Question came up, is the 80% haste cap only for two handed weapons. Most likely not, but how can you hit it without hasso / desperate blows (2handed onry)? well the only way is possible with Improved Dual Wield or Martial Arts, so my question is:

Is DW/MA
calculated before haste
calculated after haste
The same as haste in calculations
restricted by the 80% cap

There seems to be no way that it could be calculated the same as haste, otherwise you could be over 100% (43%magic 25%equip 35% Dual Wield)

Calculated before haste 999 delay (lol stage 1 and 2 relic) x2 = 2000x.65 (35% DW) = 1150 delay * .32 (68%haste) = 368 Delay / 633 (if capped at 80%)

Calculated after haste 999 delay (lol stage 1 and 2 relic) x2 = 2000x .32 (68%haste) = 640 delay * .65 (35%DW) = 416 Delay / 563 (if capped at 80%)

Is there any way to test this without using the frame counting method? And if you do use that method can you be sure that fraps will capture all 30 frames per second?

DW and MA are calculated seperately from Haste. Also, whether DW/MA is calculated before or after Haste doesn't matter, as multiplication is commutative. Your math in the first example is wrong. 2000*.65 is 1300, not 1150, and the final answer for that one is 416, just like the second.

The reason you can't get to 100 with Haste and DW/MA is because Haste is added to Haste before it's multiplied, and DW/MA is added to other DW/MA. Thus, in order to get up to or above 100%, you'd need more than 100% of one of the individual stats, which is impossible. Even if you were able to get 90% DW and 90% Haste, it would still only be an effective 99% delay reduction.

[Jayhawk]

99% would be fine since the OP is trying to test if it's capped off at 80%.

EDIT:
Blah, just remembered that you actually need to be Dual Wielding to take advantage of Dual Wield delay reduction. Ninja's only 999 delay weapon is stage 1 relic katana. Red Mages can dual wield stage 1 relic dagger and stage 1 relic sword I guess but don't get all the Dual Wield delay reduction job traits.

[fuergrissa]

Oye, I apologize for that. For some reason IT guys at work blocked the calculator in addition to solitaire. I shoulda double checked before submit.

so basically, confirming that haste and DW are calculated seperatly (haste comes off of the remaining delay after Dual Wield is calculated) The only question I still have is does the 80% limit still apply?

In the above example 400ish would be the haste cap. If you bumped up to 40% DW (lvl4 trait, suppa, and AF body) your delay would be 384, which is below 80% of the orriginal delay, so would your attack speed be capped at 400 or can you go lower?

[fuergrissa]

99% would be fine since the OP is trying to test if it's capped off at 80%.

EDIT:
Blah, just remembered that you actually need to be Dual Wielding to take advantage of Dual Wield delay reduction. Ninja's only 999 delay weapon is stage 1 relic katana. Red Mages can dual wield stage 1 relic dagger and stage 1 relic sword I guess but don't get all the Dual Wield delay reduction job traits.

Your Right, I had thought from memory that Mimizuku was 999 delay also, but it's 227. I guess for testing purposes you would have to have a combined delay of 1200-something, it should still be doable though right?

[Jayhawk]

One of the AF1 weapons, Zushio, has 238 delay. This seems to be the 2nd highest for Katana. Total delay for stage 1 relic and Zushio would be 1237.

ninja equipment for maximizing haste and dual wield:
Walahra Turban (haste +5%)
Suppanomimi (-5% DW delay)
Shinobi Earring (haste +20%)
Ninja Chainmail (-5% DW delay)
Koga Hakama (-5% DW delay)

Ninja's get -30% DW delay from job traits.

Let j = new delay when DW reduction applied first, k = new delay when haste applied first, x = DW delay reduction, y = haste from equipment and capped magical haste (43.75%) and D = base delay.
j = floor( (1-y) * ( floor( (1-x) * D ) )
k = floor( (1-x) * ( floor( (1-y) * D ) )

Calculations:

DW reduction first -> floor((1-0.45)*1237) = 680
haste applied -> j = floor((1-0.6875)*680) = 212
212 delay from original 1237 delay = ~82.82% delay reduction

haste applied first -> floor((1-0.6875)*1237) = 386
DW reduction -> k = floor((1-0.45)*386) = 212
This supports other posters to show that order of application doesn't make a difference.

Observations:

With the two highest delay Katanas, you can only hit ~82.82% delay reduction. It may be tricky to notice if it's capped at 80%.
Even with floors in calculations, the commutative property of multiplication still holds.

EDIT
Forgot about Shinobi Earring. Thanks to Capo!

[Jayhawk]

I just remembered about Haste Samba. If the 5% from Haste Samba doesn't count towards magical haste cap and is like Hasso/Desperate Blows, 178 delay can be achieved (with the gear in Calculation A in my previous post). 1237 to 178 results in a ~85.61% haste. This seems like a more reasonable number for testing attack delay cap of 80% using fraps methods.

[Capo]

ninja equipment for maximizing haste and dual wield:
Walahra Turban (haste +5%)
Shinobi Earring (haste+20%)
Suppanomimi (-5% DW delay)
Ninja Chainmail (-5% DW delay)
Koga Hakama (-5% DW delay)

fixed

[Jayhawk]

Ooo...totally forgot about that item. Gonna edit my calculation post.

[Kirschy]

I could probably do this test. I don't have suppa or the 20% earring though. (I wonder how long til the earring goes on ah =x)

Relic Katana 999 delay + warp cudgel 264 Delay

Counting frames is very accurate, not accurate enough to deduce where truncation occurs though.

1263 total delay
30% DW trait + 5% af2 legs + 5% af1 body = 40% dual wield
20% earring + 5% turban + 2% feet = 25% Haste Cap(a little more to be sure)
Haste + SV Marches = Magic Haste cap 43.75%

If I understand correctly you want to deduce if the haste cap applies /w dual wield or only /w haste.

If 80% was the total cap including dual wield then:
1263 * .2 = 252.6 delay / 60seconds = 4.21 seconds * 30 fps = 126.3 frames

If dualwield is not part of the total cap:
Dual Wield: 1263 * .6 = 757.8 delay
757.8 * .3125 = 236.8125 delay / 60 sec = 3.946875 * 30fps = ~118.4 frames

10 frames is a third of a second, so I feel confidant my tests could tell the difference. I've been a bit busy and working on another testing project, but if I can get ahold of the 20% earring I can test it and post my data.

[BerenTebogo]

Can anyone run the numbers for 185 + 190 with turban, chainmail +1, dusk hands, koga belt, byakko legs, suppa?

I'm really bad at the haste math and just curious what the resulting delay would be.

[JetEnduro]

186(.75)

[BerenTebogo]

nice :D :D

[JetEnduro]

Hundred Fists NIN :nikkei:

[fuergrissa]

It's a shame, the earring is only 40k on my server and there are 2 on AH right now.

And thanks a ton for the responces. It may only be 6% or so above cap but I would definately like to know. Would also be nice to have MNK or NIN back on top of the heap as far as attacking really fast, albiet its not as satisfying if only because another job got gimped.

Also for above poster I thought haste samba counted toward magic cap?

68.75% haste then 45% dual weild should leave you with 14.0625 of your original delay or 85.9375 effective haste unless its capped.

To test it with fraps you just record it at 30fps, find the exact frame when each attack animation starts, maybe average out 4-5 rounds and then compare it to your figures above kirshey?

The animations will be truncated if a new round of attacks starts before the last one finishes correct? I have all the gear for this, my wife is BRD and we have a whm char for haste so If I can get a copy of fraps I shouldnt have a problem doing this myself correct?

[JetEnduro]

The earring is only active when in red HP (I think)
That's why it's so cheap.

[Jayhawk]

Go Kirschy for volunteering to do testing in the future.
I love Ninja-related tests :nikkei: .

If my MNK was higher than level 4 and I paid any attention to how Martial Arts worked, I could work out the math behind it. I'll try to read up on this during the weekend.

[Kirschy]

Recording 10 attack rounds /w a high delay, and checking it frame by frame in a program like VDub is fairly easy to figure out. If you want to get more accurate you can modify your .DAT attack animations to all the be same(this will make more sense when you actualli do the frame counting.)

I think Martial Arts works by reducing base H2H Delay. (Meaning it doesn't affect your weapon)

[Callisto]

Oye, I apologize for that. For some reason IT guys at work blocked the calculator in addition to solitaire. I shoulda double checked before submit.

That's fucking awful, I use plain MS Calculator probably more than any other program ever, lol.