Usukane vs Turban for tp on samurai?

[karril]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but i could not see it anywhere....

If you dont have an aces or askar, but you do have an usukane somen...

Is it worth wearing during tp on samurai? Vs turban or whatnot.

Or turban vs somen for nin and monk? (for monk i think it would easily be better, but i dont know about ninja.) Advice? Suggestions? All are welcome


Thank you

[Royal]

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28761

Topic to post this stuff in.

[karril]

sorry i used the wrong forum... i thought i posted in newbie. Please move it? Or i will repost and you can delete this.

[Tekki]

mooved

[karril]

Thanks tekki, now if only someone would answer the question =p

[Alexandor]

Sorry d0od - Ace's Helm!

[karril]

Sorry d0od - Ace's Helm!

i said in the post... if you dont have aces or askar.... is it worth using over turban.

[Alexandor]

That's why I excused myself in advance ;p

d0od 2% less Haste for 7 acc, some AGI/STR - I don't know your acc/tp-equip build whatsover or what kind of stuff you're usually fighting. It's all situational x.x; Personally if I didn't have an Ace's I'd try to get Usukane Somen just bc of the looks. <.<;

[RKenshin]

If you're below 80% acc Usu, use Somen.

If you're below 85% acc Usu, doesn't really matter, but I'd recommend Somen.

If you're above 85% acc without Usu, use Turban.

[Starr]

I was gonna say the same as Ruke but I'd probably say over 90/91% to use Turban to be safe.

[shaddix]

Just so i understand, the increase in damage from 50% acc to 55% acc, is the same increase as going from 85% acc to 90% acc?

And the sole purpose of getting over 80% acc is to decrease the benefit of sushi to the point where meat is better? So then are you saying 80 attack is usually as good as 15% hitrate increase, but not as good as a 20% hitrate increase? Or does it work differently than that.

Also, if that's true would it not make sense to keep piling on acc gear once past 80% hitrate until you're at the cap, unless you can get at least double the attack in the same slot(15% hitrate from sushi, 80 attack from meat)?

[Valyana]

Just so i understand, the increase in damage from 50% acc to 55% acc, is the same increase as going from 85% acc to 90% acc?

No. The lower your current acc, the more +1 acc helps. At 50% acc, increasing your acc by 1% increases your hits/sec by 2% (51/50=1.02). At 90% acc, only it only increases hits/sec by 1.11%.

By contrast, the more Haste you have, the more benefit you get from adding more. At 0% Haste, adding 1% more increases hits/sec by 1%. At 25% Haste, adding 1% more increases hits/sec by 1.35%.

So, to compare 7 acc (3.5%) to 2% Haste.

At 90% base acc, adding 3.5% increases hits/sec by 3.89%.

For 2% Haste to match that, you would have to have 43% Haste with no head armor, which is unlikely unless you are getting 2x March+Haste. Haste+V.March is 26%, so you would need to have 17% in gear, i.e. Haidate+Fuma+Dusk Gloves+Speed Belt, and I'm guessing that if you don't have Ace's or Askar, you also don't have Speed Belt.

So basically, if you have capped acc or double March+Haste, use Turban. Otherwise use Somen.

Same tradeoff for NIN and MNK, though the fSTR benefit of Somen is (potentially) larger for them than for SAM.

[shaddix]

1% increases your hits/sec by 2% (51/50=1.02). At 90% acc, only it only increases hits/sec by 1.11%.

=D Thank you this is exactly what I wanted to know :D

i'm still kidn of confused >

if you're hitting 10 out of 100 swings

and you increase your hitrate by 5% that makes you hit 15 out of 100 swings.

if you're hitting 50 out of 100 swings, and you increase your hitrate by 5%, does that not make you hit 55 out of 100 swings?

if you're at 10%, increasing by 5% is obviously a much bigger increase relative to your 10%. And its much less relative to 50%. But isn't that damage increase going to still be t he same?

5 more swings = 5 more swings no matter how often you were hitting previously? I am missing something ; ;

[VZX]

At any point from 1.0 to lim x->0.0 f=1/x graph (haste) grows faster than f=x graph

You can say +1% haste is strictly better than +2 acc at any circumstances

[shaddix]

Well what i'm trying to do is figure out if you're at 90% hitrate, should you take +20 attack or +5% hitrate. Because at 80% hitrate, 60 attack is better than 15% hitrate which is 4 attack per 1% hitrate. So then does that mean +5% hitrate and +20 attack are going to be equal at 50% hitrate as they are at 80% hitrate? Or how does that scale depending on accuracy? hmm. the 20 attack is only working on hits that connect but the acc/haste work on missed swings as well? hm yeah that makes sense, esems i answered my own question

so does this mean i have to do testing to find the location where i should stop stacking acc/haste and stack attack instead ;_;?

[Valyana]

You can say +1% haste is strictly better than +2 acc at any circumstances

No, you can't.

For instance, when I ran some numbers a while back (before some significant gear upgrades) I had 359 acc and 9% Haste as BST/NIN before food. Level 82 Greater Colibri have 339 evasion, or 367 adjusted for the level gap, which works out to 71% acc. Assume I'm getting Haste for +15%, or 24% total haste.

hits/time is proportional to Acc/(100-Haste)

71/(100-24) = 0.9342

Now, would 1% Haste or 1% Acc be better in this situation?

72/(100-24) = 0.9474
71/(100-25) = 0.9467

So the Acc is slightly better. If I were getting March or Madrigal, the Haste would win since Haste has increasing returns and Acc has diminishing returns. If I have no songs or Haste, the Acc definitely wins.

[shaddix]

why is that

oh i see why kinda right?

i think i understand describe a general rule for that and put boundaries on it :D


Also does acc actually have diminishing returns? going from 90% hitrate to 95% hitrate should be the same increase in hits landed as 50% hitrate to 55% hitrate

after 100 swings you'll have added 5 more connected hits in both situations? I don't understand what is going on D: does it have something to do with your attack speed? Well I mean i do understand that its less of an increase relative to your previous hitrate, but is there something else i'm missing than makes it actually have diminishing returns? You mean diminishing returns as far as total damage output is concerned relative to haste and attack? I don't understand T_T

;_;

[Valyana]

Well what i'm trying to do is figure out if you're at 90% hitrate, should you take +20 attack or +5% hitrate.

Well, that depends on your current attack and the mob's defense. And the new pDIF function, which I haven't seen posted anywhere; Studio Gobli doesn't seem to have a graph, and a google image search for ???? doesn't turn up anything useful. As a general rule like 2 acc ~ 1 haste, I've figured that at L75, 1 acc ~ 3 attack. But that varies with your effective acc and cRatio.

Assuming the old pDIF function, Greater Colibri and 441 attack, +20 attack will increase your damage/hit by ~4.74%, while +5% hitrate will increase your hits/sec by 5.55%, which is a clear win. And like accuracy, the more attack you have, the less it does for you.

Because at 80% hitrate, 60 attack is better than 15% hitrate

Not at 441 attack on L82 Greater Colibri:

60*0.237 = 14.22%
(95/80 - 1)*100 = 18.75%

So then does that mean +5% hitrate and +20 attack are going to be equal at 50% hitrate as they are at 80% hitrate? Or how does that scale depending on accuracy? hmm. the 20 attack is only working on hits that connect but the acc/haste work on missed swings as well?

It's not that, it's just that to judge the effect of one piece of gear/food/magic to another, you divide the damage/sec with the piece of gear by the damage/sec without it to see how much of an improvement it will make. If the only thing that varies is your accuracy, new dps/old dps will be equal to new acc/old acc, and 85/80 is smaller than 55/50. It gets confusing because both accuracy and the degree of improvement are expressed as percentages, so it's easy to mix them up.

Attack works similarly: if you're only adding attack, new dps/old dps = new average damage per hit/old average damage per hit = new average pDIF/old average pDIF

Haste is a bit different, since it's a divisor rather than a multiplier: new dps/old dps = (1/(100-new Haste))/(1/(100-old Haste)) = (100-old Haste)/(100-new Haste)

See http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Maxim ... mage_Guide that I wrote a while back for even more excessive detail.

The formulas for calculating the exact effect of a point of attack are both quite complex and probably obsolete, so I'd suggest just figuring that +1 attack ~ +0.25% damage/hit on merit/limbus/salvage mobs, and +0.2% for HNM, just multiplying that by the number of attack points to get the percentage improvement.

Also note that hit rate improves your TP gain rate as well as the damage you do with regular melee hits, so I tend to multiply hit rate % improvement by 1.5 when comparing it to attack/STR.

[shaddix]

oh very nice thank you so much for the explanation :D this helps me out a ton thank you =D

and wow at that being on ffxiclopedia @_@ i usually stay away from that place like its the plague for game mechanics information, though i will bookmark it <3

[Valyana]

and wow at that being on ffxiclopedia @_@

I wrote it before there was a bgwiki.