Pandemonium Warden - The aftermath theories.

[ronin sparthos]

Perhaps the titles are just to lock him out of transforming into certain annoying forms but doesnt actually help to win the fight.

It'd give people a reason to collect the various titles and another reason to actually defeat the 3 beastmen leaders/do the candy BCNMs/Odin/Salvage etc?

Galadar is the only wrench in this theory so far.

Wonder if he can mimic Odin... if thats the case, the title theory would look plausible again..

The only reason that im even leaning in the direction of titles affecting this guy is because the entire last update could be summarized as "Touring Aht Urhgan" so perhaps the titles just limit his forms.

[Max™]

The title theory is luckily easy to test, have people with all four chariot titles at the pop.

He turns into a chariot, that blows it to hell.

[Izzy]

But yet there are also reports here of it not going yellow as soon as everyone with hate logged off/died...so your claims are not infallible either, thus we are at an impass.

It's common knowledge that it needs to have lost hate for at least 2 or 3 regen cycles for it to turn yellow.

There is no impasse. Your one time incident does not fall in line with the past 4 years of experiences.

[ronin sparthos]

Exactly.

Sounds plausible, the only titles that would be a bitch to get/test would be the 3 candy BCNM titles, the 3 leader kill titles anyway.

[Max™]

Derail split?

CFH Mechanics thread incoming?


Killing the Warden without hurting the lamps would be easy to test too, but everyone seems strangely averse to that one.

[Izzy]

Derail split?

CFH Mechanics thread incoming?

Yea no kidding.

[zoobernut]

The title theory is luckily easy to test, have people with all four chariot titles at the pop.

He turns into a chariot, that blows it to hell.

Not to put a damper in this theory but there is a chance that the titles changing his behavior is an all or nothing situation. What if having some but not all the titles does nothing. There is a chance that testing the theory in this way does not 100% disprove it.

[Kaylia]

Not to put a damper in this theory but there is a chance that the titles changing his behavior is an all or nothing situation. What if having some but not all the titles does nothing. There is a chance that testing the theory in this way does not 100% disprove it.

I would say an all of nothing would be a major game design flaw...but then we have Absolute Virtue. Anyway, we should know soon if it work or now, someone must be close from another pop set.

[Max™]

Same with having all the Lamps up vs 1 up vs 0 up.

We know 1 up repops him, in this case as the original version, this is worth noting.
We know 0 up repops him, as a different version, this is worth noting.
We don't know what all up will do.

1 up forces a redo of the original to try and get it right?
0 up gives another chance against a different version.
All up will either redo that step in the chain, or it will pop the Dvergr and break the chain, barring some completely random outcome.

For the record, I did kind of expect it to keep repopping after the lamps were dead, but didn't expect the various AU NM models, that was an interesting twist, but to me it just screams that he's toying with us, and we're doing something wrong.

Cackle, Snap, Try again?

[Sagacious Sundi]

Killing the Warden without hurting the lamps would be easy to test too, but everyone seems strangely averse to that one.

Maybe some people don't want to waste time getting hurt by extra lamps IF it ends up doing nothing. That's the only reason I can think of.

EDIT: I may have missed it, but did anyone rename the wardens/lamps? Was the dvergr .dat different from the other forms?

[Max™]

At this point, we have two (relatively) simple theories.

We can try both at once, next pop, if you know anyone getting close, have them put as many titles relevant in the ally as possible, and try leaving the lamps up.

We can pretty safely assume that killing all the lamps and then warden does effectively nothing, since that fight lasted a third of a day.

If that is the real method, and there are likely still more forms to draw from, then this fight is the biggest time dump ever.

At least AV is obviously unkillable, this one keeps stringing you along, "will this be the last one? Nope! HERE'S HYDRA GUYZ!"

If this is the mobs way of saying "you're not doing something right" then we need to give the title thing a shot (though, Gadalar, blah), and it's worth trying the strictly unique lamp configurations.

The lamps are a switch, we can see now that it absolutely has an effect on the behavior.

All down could be thought of as Off, and it swaps to a new form.

1 up is an in between On and Off state, and it repopped the original chariot.

All up is an unique state which hasn't been tested.

[JigglyJam]

Am I reading all this right?
We're talking about some sort of title theory and PW has only been popped once?

[Norellicus]

Fine fine, but I have no reason to about it so I'm not sure why you feel that you have to be hostile to a simple testimony of an exceptional case.

Sorry for the derail, I'll leave it alone now.

[ronin sparthos]

Am I reading all this right?
We're talking about some sort of title theory and PW has only been popped once?

Twice that we know of?

[Max™]

There is actual basis, the same update has the Babban title effecting Lycopodiums, and all of the monsters he's popped as (besides Gadalar >.<) have unique titles, or titles associated with them.

Do I think that is it? No.

It should be tested though, as it would hopefully be simple enough to see.

Also: two pops now.

[JigglyJam]

Twice that we know of?

Oh twice where's the second at? And I didn't say to stop, go on ahead lol.

EDIT: Oh I see, I'll admit I didn't read the whole thread.

[Max™]

Page 4.5~10 I think cover it.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Oh twice where's the second at? And I didn't say to stop, go on ahead lol.

This thread. (The other one is in the original Zeni NM thread.)

But really, people should try every insane, inane, and sane theory possible. The fact that this fight is long, but not hard, (I had to) makes it perfect for testing, unlike AV which is more along the lines of "At lassst the time has--*Chainssspell*".

[Tyche]

When the first group did it, they left one of the lamps up and didn't it change back to the same chariot? I'm thinking possibly some correlation between the lamps and his forms (ten lamps, ten forms maybe)?

[Jackyl]

Killing the Warden without hurting the lamps would be easy to test too, but everyone seems strangely averse to that one.

By "easy to test", you mean "nearly impossible to test"? The 8 lamps share hate with PW for the most part. Someone else besides the tank acting on the lamp can distract them for a few seconds but they will eventually come back for whoever is on the top of the hate list. Now combine that with the nasty AOE moves the triple gears do (AOE 450~600 dmg / gravity) and you've got a PW that can NOT be straight tanked regardless of gear/skill/etc. Hell, you can have a PLD that can keep invincible up the whole time and you'd still wipe because rail cannon is magic dmg.

So, now it's a kited fight. So you've got a tank kiting PW with the 8 lamps following it. And you've got people trying to nuke/shoot at PW while it's being kited along with the 8 lamps. Whenever someone pulls hate from doing dmg, the gears now turn and AOE on whoever pulled hate and everyone near that person. People are dying left and right and the fight is now turning into some kind of 2005 5hour Kirin-athon by an amateur LS where you toss XP at the mob.

So not only is the "don't kill the lamps and just kill the PW"-thoery not plausible in execution, it also isn't very sound in logic. It doesn't make sense to make a mob that summons pets that HAS to be killed without the pets being killed at all. That's like a Kirin where you can't kill the summoned gods or Bahamut v2 where you can't kill the summoned wyrms. Not logical.