War/sam problems

[Fogo]

Greetings peoplings

A little background to begin. I've had War 75 for a little over a year now I think, and of course trying to maximize my capabilities in both meripo and event situations with the limited resources I have. I built the job revolving around GA (the 2h update happened like right around the same time I hit 75, lucky me i guess). I primarily use /nin for just about everything (haven't had a chance to use the job in many endgame situations relying on other subs, but i have them all).

So lately I feel like I've about reached my potential in meripos with the /nin sub, and reading posts here about war/sam and seeing a couple in action, I have begun to try that sub out. I'm having trouble though. Every time i use /sam in meripos, I get my butt kicked, even when i use seigan full time. I know this is in large part due to the lolwar's and other crappy DD's i have the misfortune of often getting stuck with in pickups who can't hold or keep or even get hate for the life of them. But I was curious and thought I'd ask here, if there were some techniques other war/sams use when meriting that help them generally not become mp sponges, specifically what people do that allow them to use hasso, or if hasso is even suppose to be usable in meriting.

In case people ask, i'll post my gear, though I don't think this matters much with actual meriting techniques. And yes, I know i'm missing a few elite pieces. They're on my list, I just haven't had a chance to get them yet.

Perdu Voulge/pole strap/_/bomb core
wal-mart turban/chiv chain/brutal/assault --- adaman celata, snow gorget for ws
Hauberk +1/dusk gloves/ulthalams/ecphoria* --- hecatomb hands, flame ring
Amemet +1/swift belt/af2 legs/unicorn feet --- warwolf, rse2 feet

*i use the ecphoria full time, ws and tp, because that extra 1 store tp lets me get exactly 100 tp in I think 7 hits. w/o the ecphoria I kept hitting 98 and it drove me nuts.

[Tan]

Something like Greater Colibri, I would full time Hasso in a average or above average meripo. And simply save third eye when you see Greater Colibri is about to use Pecking Flurry. If you have a poor healer or they are low on MP I'd full time Seigan and just spam Third Eye macro whenever you pull hate if its down, or you could always find another PT that would let you use hasso full time.

For anything besides Greater Colibri I would generally avoid using Hasso full time and potentially only use it if I was about to WS at the start and quickly switch into Seigan/Third Eye.

Overall its all situational, if you are killing mobs fast enough Hasso full time is the way to go and save those Third Eyes for the nasty TP moves. Best advice I have is merit only with people you consider up to par, you don't have to merit with just any random people, ask you linkshell and keep your standards high. I'm not being elitist or anything but I typically only merit w/ a COR and a BRD because its not worth my time dicking around in a subaverage PT when I hate meriting.

[Fogo]

to add a complaint here, I rarely ever get a chance to meripo with friends/ls members, because they rarely merit anymore, and I still have a lot of merits I need (250 out of some 350 needed for all my jobs). So i just bite the bullet and take the pickups cause at least then i'm getting the merits, even if it means dealing with subpar DD's.

[fantasticdan]

In pickup pts I'm usually tanking most of the time on war/sam, including first voking pulls. TBH I usually don't take that much damage on birds, sounds like you're just having bad luck with third eye. I usually fulltime seigan in pickups, just using hasso before WS sometimes. I use fowling earring instead of assault on colibri, seems to give around 5% bird killer, which isn't huge, but a decent dd earring anyway so why not.

[Grey Jorildyn]

WAR/SAM has a lot more micro than WAR/NIN. I usually run Seigan full time and use Hasso for weapon skills when Seigan and Third Eye are ready to go as soon as I'm done using TP. If I pull hate (usually), I'll swap right back into it and then look for situations where I can use Hasso without being a MP sponge.

That aside, it's almost not worth bothering to sub samurai without a 6hit build. In addition to /sam, you only need +7 store TP with the Perdu Voulge. Try to get an Askar body or a Rajas Ring. It will really help your DoT overall.

[Fogo]

I do have askar body, which i use a lot with /sam for that reason. I actually have a macro just to swap that piece in in case I miss a hit from RR and need an extra point of TP to get rid of that extra hit again, macro it in, hit the mob a couple times, and macro back into haub.

I had completely forgotten about using hasso for ws's, thanks for that tip and I'll give it a try. Never bothered to get fowling earring because I had assault from a long time ago, but maybe i'll grab one and play around with it, they're pretty cheap anyways.

Thanks.

[Bakthi]

I've been in a LS perma since 40 WAR, and been using /SAM since 70. The perma is RDM BRD BLM THF MNK WAR, so basically I voke at the start, and then the THF and MNK do what they can to get hate to go to the MNK occasionally.

If I have hate for a longish period of time, I tend to get beat in the face a bit. It helped a lot once the MNK got Asuran Fists. If you have other DDs in the party that can't take hate off you, Seigan + Third Eye isn't going to be enough, because in addition to you having to tank nearly full-time, the mob is living longer due to being damaged less. /NIN is a less powerful sub, but it's safer if you're mostly in pickups.

I play it pretty conservatively in my current setup, and only use Hasso when it seems the mob is gonna be on the MNK for a while, the mob is going to live more than a few seconds, and Seigan is ready to go again. Maybe if I party with merited 75 DDs it will be different...but I'll probably be on COR .

Echoing the advice about needing to set up the 6-hit for /SAM to show its power.

[Khajit]

The only time i've really viewed war/sam as safe was that one time I went vs a ridill war. I Still took more damage than everyone else but I attribute that as having more to do with overthrow ignoring shadows/3rd eye+ me grabbing hate than seigan failing.

[Max™]

*insert my usual war/sam is jesus rant here*

Really though, if you have a 2 buffer 3 dd setup where the other 2 DD's can't bounce hate with you, there is something going wrong.

If the party is bad enough that you not only can't save mp with hasso + killifying shit faster, but you also get faceraped constantly with Seigan up, you need better DD's to merit with probably, or you're voking a lot and not using TE as often as possible.

I voke compulsively usually, so I use Seigan a lot unless we're all just wrecking shit left and right, then as was said, I save TE for flurry/drub/drive/vorpal/penta/etc.

[Khrno]

As Max said, the main issue for /SAM to work well is that all the melees have to be of the same level (I mean good), If /SAM will put you at 40-45% (or sometimes even 50%) It will be troublesome.

I made a mistake of going WAR/SAM, actually of going to a pick up party a few weeks ago where the other 2 WARs didn't have any haste gear besides Turban, you can get the picture with that. So besides wasting many of the usefulness of the sub such as Hasso (having to fultime Seigan) and Meditate (having to hold TP because of TE timer and MP), I left the party after 20 min.

If the hate can be shared decently (25-35% is a good margin) /SAM is a great sub and party will be more likely succesful (unless it is a party of 3 gimp dds that can't keep a chain up with 2 BRDs, but that's not the point here). If you have the chance before going to camp, try to check the other melees, or at least have a look at them and then decide which sub will be best.

A good techinique is trying to always have Hasso ready to use after you have used Seigan, so your performance will be maximized, I usually recast Hasso anytime I can when I'm at low TP (and not being target of the mob) because if I wait for it to wear off at the 3 min mark you might find yourself using Seigan right after and then having to wait the remaining of the minute for Hasso to be available again.

[isladar]

A tricked WAR/SAM needs equally tricked DDs to unleash the fucking fury, or else the job combination only pushes you further down into a hell of silent resentment towards those in party with you, who clearly only exist to muffle your God-given potential to eatfuck everything in your path.

Another solution, especially if you're fighting Mamool/Skoffin/etc. is the BRD COR WHM backline -- just make sure the WHM is either exceedingly masochistic or owes you favours, because a well placed Cure V or seven will let you ride Hasso with impunity.

But epeen aside, being conservative about when you're suicidal or a good TE monkey will do far more to boost your overall damage output -- especially if the other DDs can't match you. And the above-mentioned healerfag may actually agree to merit with you again.

[Max™]

If the healfag doesn't agree to merit more, a good skullfucking may be in order.

If they're lucky, that is.

[Callisto]

But epeen aside, being conservative about when you're suicidal or a good TE monkey will do far more to boost your overall damage output -- especially if the other DDs can't match you. And the above-mentioned healerfag may actually agree to merit with you again.

That...kicking major ass in merits doesn't always mean full-on balls to the wall do as much damage as possible on every swing, it means hitting chain Over 9000 and cranking out as much XP as possible. If your other DDs are lacking, just ride Seigan full-time and maybe hold your TP til the mob is a bit lower, so that you don't have mega hate with the mob still at 75% and 25 seconds left on Third Eye. Like Bakthi said Seigan/3E just isn't meant to be a long-term tanking solution(at least not for /SAM), if you're getting pounded in the face non-stop either you need better DDs in the party, or you need to tone it down slightly and find the nice soothing medium of output and efficiency.

[Sprint]

I hasso full time and bring my own 75 whm dual box healerfag, people can't bitch when you cure yourself.

[Sendra]

(Fogoazul? Yo.)

I generally do not use WAR/SAM unless I'm A) at colibri camp or B) meriting with Ridills. At something like Mamool, you'll just get your ass kicked more often than not if you're liable to have hate a lot/most of the time.

The key thing to realize, is that Seigan is not Utsusemi. You won't even get similar avoid rates when you compare the two, so when it comes down to it, WAR/SAM is kind of naked, raw damage. This doesn't matter when each bird lasts like, 10-15 seconds though.

(Also, you might wanna use a little more accuracy in your weapon skills.)

[Max™]

I never had a problem with /Sam at mamools, but again, 2 Brd + known DD's is the key when you're playing with Skoffins and bitchy Penta happy Drg's.

Biggest problem I have at mamool is when I pop a fresh Seigan, skoffin pops, we turn to wreck it and it dispels it, then TE goes off and I've no choice but to swap to hasso and kill faster.

Oh wait, HAVING to use Hasso isn't a problem, that's excitement!

[Tsuko_Asura]

The key thing to realize, is that Seigan is not Utsusemi. You won't even get similar avoid rates when you compare the two, so when it comes down to it, WAR/SAM is kind of naked, raw damage.

Oh lawd, here we go again.

[Fogo]

Hey send!
quick note about acc on ws, ever since i switched to snow gorget in my ws's (thank you "what's better?" thread!) i think i can count on one hand the number of times i've missed a hit in RR, not counting finishing off the mob before all hits got in. My RR's went from 900 average to 1100 average thanks to that little tweak (on mamools, haven't had a chance to play with birds since i made that change )

Thanks for all the other replies, most of this has reinforced what I already had figured out but there's been some little bits of info i'm definitely going to try out next chance I get.

[Dantrag]

As it's been said /SAM works at any EXP spot, Mamool or Colibri. The thing that matters most to making it successful is the entire party though. Without 2 other good DD's you're going to pull too much hate and get smacked around like a bitch.

Max, fun times when skoffin do that... just have to go into destroy mode and hope you don't get bull dozed.