Stacking Conserve MP math (SCH main heal)

[mym]

Wiki says for Conserve MP: "With a base activation rate of 25%, Conserve MP allows you to retain approximately 7 MP for every 100 MP spent. The actual amount retained may vary."

With the addition of the Cobra gear and 4th Division mace it is relatively easy to reach +24 Conserve MP in gear, which along with the Conserve MP trait (which is 25%) giving you a grand total of 49% Conserve MP. (more if you swap the 4th mace with a Seveneyes).

My math question is, if 25% cmp is ~7mp saved per 100 spent, would 50% cmp be ~14mp saved per 100 spent, or would stacking cmp have increasing returns similar to how stacking haste does?

As a reference to real world numbers, I am the healer (SCH) in our Nyzul Isle static. The typical spells I cast where I would wear this set are:

(all mp costs assume light arts is up)
Cure III - 41 MP
Cure IV - 88 MP
RegenIIga - 65 MP
Enspellga - 22 MP
Paralyna - 22 MP
Erasega - 32 MP
Dia II - 27 MP

In my current gear setup, I use http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=24776 which gives me cmp+13, for a total of 38% w/job trait.

What I really want to know is, would ditching the Vermy cloak/Apollo's full time in favor of Goliard Saio/Cobra Cloche/4th mace for a total of 49% cmp be worth losing the 20mp per minute from the cloak's refresh?

As a side note, an interesting thing I noticed when researching all this, Conserve MP is a pretty rare stat on gear.. there are only 5 AH-able items that have it, and only 1 of those 5 pieces (4th mace) can be worn by a job other then BLM.

Thanks for your time,

[Amele]

the 7% mp assumes the following:

1) uniform distribution of cost of spells cast.
2) uniform proc based on spells cast.
3) long (stupidly long) sample time.

these are all reasonable assumptions from a statistical basis, but will cause you problems if you expect to save X of every y mp without fail.

following analysis ignores flooring so I can do it fast:
anyway, the average saved per proc is avg(1/16, 2/16, ... 8/16) which is 0.28125 per proc. the -rate- of proc is the trait value. (so in your case, 38%) which results in a total of ~10.7% saved.

going to 49% will give you ~13.7% mp saved. so the question is, how much mp would you have to spend to save more than 20mp/min on average over the life of your toon? 20/.03 = ~667mp/min.

so if you're spending 667mp/min or more then on average, the extra conserve mp will be better than the 20mp/min refresh.

edit: on average. over any given 1 minute period you might save anywhere from 0 mp/min to about 334mp/min.

[Faithe]

Just like what Amele said.

Conserve MP is great if you are zerging and know you are in for a tough battle with no time to rest. That's why the new Cobra set is so awesome for it, can't wait for the body piece. It is also pretty useful in merit party if you got a setup of 4 melee, bard, and one mage. Basically, if you are casting back to back, it will always return more mp than that 1 tick refresh piece.

[Turambar]

It would be interesting to know whether Conserve MP is checked at the time the MP is spent or at the time you start casting. Depending on the situation, it would be possible to maximize the effects of both (on slower spells anyways). Of course, this wouldn't apply for main healing, since healing spells are all pretty quick.

[Amele]

Just like what Amele said.

Conserve MP is great if you are zerging and know you are in for a tough battle with no time to rest. That's why the new Cobra set is so awesome for it, can't wait for the body piece. It is also pretty useful in merit party if you got a setup of 4 melee, bard, and one mage. Basically, if you are casting back to back, it will always return more mp than that 1 tick refresh piece.

667mp/min is functionally unsustainable for longer than 2-3 minutes for anyone other than a redmage (who might be able to go 4 or 5 depending on their max mp and how good their convert macro is).

best case (meaning evoker's on XI+gjalla bard+refresh+sanction+2mp/tick self) you've got about 18mp/tick or ~360mp/min. but you've devoted 4 party slots to giving someone that refresh rate. at that rate, you'll be able to last ~max_mp/300 minutes which for a typical mage is 3-4 minutes.

in a more normal situation (~8mp/tick) you're looking at about 500 net mp/min, which is going to be about 2 minutes of burn time for most mages.


while there -are- fights that are over that fast, there's not very many where you're literally casting that hard.


In merit 1mp/tick is going to grossly outperform 11 conserve mp. - there's arguments when you get to the level of whm/smn vs whm/blm but we're talking about 25 conserve mp at that point and it's still not better.

[Amele]

It is probably checked when the mp is spent. since other 'effect of spell' things are calculated at that time and you have to have the mp for the gross cost of the spell to start the spell in the first place.

[shieldsofwindurst]

One thing that is also useful to consider is the fact that stacking conserve mp gear doesn't actually increase activation rate, it seems to increase (based on the many, many tests I've read and personally done in the years I've played) the "tier" of % mp returned. As you probably know, when conserve mp kicks in, it returns a variable % of mp-sort of like when you get a resist, it's either for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16. Conserve mp seems to have a similar mp gain structure, and my best guess based on all the evidence I've seen is that it increases the likelyhood of getting one of those higher tiers. What that breakdown is, who knows~as has been said, you need a stupidly long sample size just to get some data to work with; this is why people consider this trait to be more placebo than anything. But because it's an increase in possible return, not in activation rate, it would seem to me that this would imply diminishing returns, not linear or exponential returns (not going to do the math).

Also, considering Amele's response, I'd prefer refresh regardless, because it is unlikely that (on any job) you're going to have that kind of mp output and not either get killed or have to take a break to let enmity diminish. Bottom line, if you have a slot you're not using go ahead, but people have been looking into this for years, and nobody has ever conclusively shown that conserve mp is the way to go.

[Amele]

One thing that is also useful to consider is the fact that stacking conserve mp gear doesn't actually increase activation rate, it seems to increase (based on the many, many tests I've read and personally done in the years I've played) the "tier" of % mp returned. As you probably know, when conserve mp kicks in, it returns a variable % of mp-sort of like when you get a resist, it's either for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16. Conserve mp seems to have a similar mp gain structure, and my best guess based on all the evidence I've seen is that it increases the likelyhood of getting one of those higher tiers. What that breakdown is, who knows~as has been said, you need a stupidly long sample size just to get some data to work with; this is why people consider this trait to be more placebo than anything. But because it's an increase in possible return, not in activation rate, it would seem to me that this would imply diminishing returns, not linear or exponential returns (not going to do the math).

Also, considering Amele's response, I'd prefer refresh regardless, because it is unlikely that (on any job) you're going to have that kind of mp output and not either get killed or have to take a break to let enmity diminish. Bottom line, if you have a slot you're not using go ahead, but people have been looking into this for years, and nobody has ever conclusively shown that conserve mp is the way to go.

I'll see if I can find the test but it was conclusively proven fairly early on (like, as soon as there was any gear available with +conserve MP) that the +trait only affected -activation rate- and not which bucket it went into.


and it is diminishing returns in the sense of how most laymen use the term on these boards (you can't get a conserve mp when you've already conserved mp, similar to how you can't get a double attack when you've already double attacked)

[shieldsofwindurst]

I'll see if I can find the test but it was conclusively proven fairly early on (like, as soon as there was any gear available with +conserve MP) that the +trait only affected -activation rate- and not which bucket it went into.


and it is diminishing returns in the sense of how most laymen use the term on these boards (you can't get a conserve mp when you've already conserved mp, similar to how you can't get a double attack when you've already double attacked)

I suppose it's a moot point since you've already shown the mp usage required for conserve mp to be worth it to be outrageous, but I am curious, because I do remember a number of tests where activation rate seemed to be basically untouched by the amount of gear. That said, it's been a while, so I would not be at all surprised if I'm wrong.

[mym]

667 MP per min http://keitaroprime.forumup.org/imag...s/icon_eek.gif

So even with Conserve MP +100, one would still only save on average ~28 per 100 MP spent... which is pretty underwhelming

I guess it makes kinda sense why BLM gets most of the Conserve MP gear then.. its pretty easy to nuke away that kind of MP, but of course, I don't know of many BLMs that would choose conserve MP in a slot over an offensive stat.

Thanks for the replies http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Amele]

most testers didn't run the tests long enough. etc. etc.

until you get an even distribution from 1/16->8/16 (which takes several hundred spellcasts) you don't see a representative sample of how it works.


edit: well. at your current level conserve mp+38; you're recovering about 10% of the mp you spend, so if you spend ~200mp/min it's like having an extra 1mp/tick refresh.

getting 180mp/min is easy as hell (it's just 6mp/tick) so it is helping you out to the tune of 'about auto-refresh'. it's when you expect it to replace 2 or more ticks that it starts to get hard.

[Kroot]

i would not use conserve mp over an item that gives beneficial stats to the spell you are using but there is plenty of situations where it could be used to help with mp.

What is use it for is Cures less then V, Pro, Shell, Regen, Haste, Refresh, Raise, Blink...
For cures I still use staff but other stuff gets club

You shouldn't depend on it but it does help for low man stuff

[Amele]

i would not use conserve mp over an item that gives beneficial stats to the spell you are using but there is plenty of situations where it could be used to help with mp.

What is use it for is Cures less then V, Pro, Shell, Regen, Haste, Refresh, Raise, Blink...
For cures I still use staff but other stuff gets club

You shouldn't depend on it but it does help for low man stuff

right. I cast everything that isn't a cure or a debuff with fourth mace. but when we're talking about verm. vs. conserve mp it's a totally different story.

it's not a bad stat, it's just definitely not a priority stat.

[rrynn]

the beauty of the conserve mp peices from the cobra set tho, is that they do not, thus far, take up a slot you'd be using a refresh peice in. on rdm, wearing cobra hands/feet full time in a fast paced merit party is noticable. might also make sence for something you were chainspell tier III zerging, they are not the best nuking hands/feet, but they dont suck, and the extra few nukes you might get in from the conserve mp in that sort of situation may well make up for the slight loss of dmg.

[Amele]

well, yes. but the original question was sch gear and body/head *shrugs*

[Meian]

I guess macroing in refresh gear when idling and switching to conserve MP gear during cast would be a bit much? XD

[Amele]

I guess macroing in refresh gear when idling and switching to conserve MP gear during cast would be a bit much? XD

you'd be blinking like woah but in general yeah you could.

[Wizerd]

I guess macroing in refresh gear when idling and switching to conserve MP gear during cast would be a bit much? XD

I thought people already did this tbh.

Also, 3 seconds for a tick, not 2. 6mp/tick is 120 MP over 1 minute, not 180. (you only made the mistake once but eh.)

And if Conserve MP gear doesn't increase proc rate, I kinda wonder how I get procs with Seveneyes as RDM/WHM.

[Kaeko]

I don't think I've ever seen a really good Conserve MP test. Then again, it's pretty difficult to test when you only have access to a couple of + gear. With the new Cobra set, it should be much easier to run a Conserve MP test.

Based on the limited testing I've seen, it seems that it's not all that useful though I hope this isn't true though since it's a really cool concept.

[Geddoe]

A little off topic but as rdm for buffs if had to select between goliard body and af2 body which would you guys go for? I know its possible to switch in during cast but I like to play simply and wonder which would be the better option when I can get a hold of the conserve mp pieces.