The new Samurai: Tachi:Rana and storetp setup - gathering information

[Aux]

So, with the release of Tachi:Rana (Nyzul weaponskill) yesterday from the 9/08 update patch, this discussion serves to seek and resolve answers pertaining to this.

Cliff Notes: Tachi:Rana a new SAM rage?

Getting Tachi:Rana
To get Tachi:Rana, you need to do Nyzul Isle and obtain a Windslicer Great Katana from the assault(s). Then you talk to the NPC Zalsumh with your Windslicer equipped, he resides in Lower Jeuno (in Muckvik's Junk Shop).

After obtaining the weapon, you must complete a corresponding amount of WS Points (similar to latent weapons and Zilart WS quest), which varies by two key factors:
1. Runic Seal Key item - Obtained from clearing floor 100 of Nyzul Isle Assault on your own disc. You will have to obtain 250 WS points after this, in order to obtain the new weaponskill [equivalent to 50 Darkness/Light SC's]. It is said that you need to fight mobs that are Easy Prey or above to obtain the points.
2. Unknown number of WS points - Can possibly be quite a large amount, depending on which floor your disc is on. (Currently in the New WS Quest Thread, some on floor 0 have said to done over 1000+ Ws points and still have yet to obtain.


About Tachi:Rana
- 3-Hit WS, Additional TP supposedly gives Accuracy / ? Unknown, need confirmation
- "Tachi: Rana" [Gravitation/Induration] - From New WS Properties created by eva00r
- Can create Self LV3 Darkness by using Tachi:Rana -> Tachi:Gekko

5-hit Setup & Great Katanas
To obtain a 5-hit setup, you need a weapon with 480 Delay. Along with that, you will need a total of +54 Store TP to obtain this.
List of known/popular Store TP Gear: Complete known list on the otherwiki
- 5/5 Store TP Merits = 10 STP
- Samurai JSE [Hachiman Domaru Set] = 3-9 STP depending on various slots / HQ+1
- Futsuno Mitama = 8 STP
- Usukane Sune-ate = 7 STP
- Usukane Haramaki = 6 STP
- Askar Korazin = 5 STP
- Rajas Ring = 5 STP
- Pachipachio itself = 2 STP
- Brutal Earring = 1 STP

There are 3 known GK's currently that have a 480 Delay:
- Shinai - Obtained from one of the events - summer or something?
- Pachipachio - Obtained from the Cerberus-type monster Sarameya of Zeni NM (ZNM)
- Futsuno Mitama - GK obtained from trading a Sin of Indulgence that drops from Absolute Virtue in Sea. Still unknown for exact cause of latent, many sources have said that it requires being in party or weapon drawn, etc. (Need feedback from actual owners)

Random Collection on Rana damage:
From Duwie
http://onigiri.xfour.org/uploads/Tachirana.jpg

Any other various information including future parses, testings, speculation, stuff done by Rkenshin, etc is greatly welcomed in here.

[ringthree]

The difference in delay between Hagun (6-hit build) and a Pachipachio (5-hit build) is only 300 delay over the TP build phase. It could be problematic at some point if getting to the 5-hit build required taking off enough haste to lose that 300 delay. Some Amele math would be required to figure that out. Also to consider is the fact that Hagun gets an extra hit in that time for more damage even if slightly slower. I don't think this is going to be as clear cut as some people think.

[FailureMidgard]

As much as I applaud you trying to get all the information in 1 place, you should avoid misinformation in your original post.

Comments such as "Cliff Notes: Tachi:Rana possibly may become the new SAM rage and outperform the standard Yuki/Gekko/Kasha regime." should be removed, when in all likelyhood from testing done so far, this is the exact opposite of the truth.

Check the thread about WS testing over in advanced (including my replies). For now, Rana is stuck as a situational WS for Sekkanoki and early floors in Salvage only (unless you don't have a Hagun).

[Starr]

I just want to see a parse of two equally equipped and merited SAMs, one using Onimaru+Rana and the other using Hagun and YGK, can't be bothered looking at all the math on paper when play style etc makes a big difference.

[FailureMidgard]

I just want to see a parse of two equally equipped and merited SAMs, one using Onimaru+Rana and the other using Hagun and YGK, can't be bothered looking at all the math on paper when play style etc makes a big difference.

Uhh, like you said, playstyle makes a big difference...I've seen Hagun outparse Apoc...that doesn't mean Hagun is better than Apoc...

If the same player is playing both weapon+WS combos, which will do more damage is the only relevant thing here...

[Aux]

Thanks for saying so FailureMidgard, I'll remove the comment, I was merely trying to allow more constructive criticism in this debate rather than be biased.

[Amele]

The difference in delay between Hagun (6-hit build) and a Pachipachio (5-hit build) is only 300 delay over the TP build phase. It could be problematic at some point if getting to the 5-hit build required taking off enough haste to lose that 300 delay. Some Amele math would be required to figure that out. Also to consider is the fact that Hagun gets an extra hit in that time for more damage even if slightly slower. I don't think this is going to be as clear cut as some people think.

I ran the numbers before and it didn't look good. it's heavily dependent on how much usukane you own.

don't forget you lose accuracy with pachipachao too.


*IF* a gkt is better than hagun now, it'll be because tachi:rana with a much better non-tp related stats overcomes the advantage that hagun's martial bonus gives.. I don't think pachi is that, as 'fun' as it is to use.

[Kimkytaru]

I wonder if gearing up sam toward an Acc/atk build would yield better result with Tachi:Rana anyone tried that yet ? Like you would do for an asuran fist setup.

Also best setup for 5 hit is what ?
25 (sam job)
10 (merit)
5 (rajas)
8 (hachiman hands)
7 (Usukane sune-ate)

Would give +55 store tp, should be around the best possible setup I guess for pachi

[ringthree]

I wonder if gearing up sam toward an Acc/atk build would yield better result with Tachi:Rana anyone tried that yet ? Like you would do for an asuran fist setup.

Also best setup for 5 hit is what ?
25 (sam job)
10 (merit)
5 (rajas)
8 (hachiman hands)
7 (Usukane sune-ate)

Would give +55 store tp, should be around the best possible setup I guess for pachi

Usukane Hara-ate and Dusk Gloves would probably be better, or full Usukane.

[Tubbers]

Usukane Hara-ate and Dusk Gloves would probably be better, or full Usukane.

I think you mean Haramaki.

With Haramaki (6) and brutal earring (1), Hachi hands aren't needed.

25 (SAM)
10 (Merits)
5 (Rajas Ring)
6 (Usukane Haramaki)
1 (Brutal Earring)
7 (Usukane Sune-ate)

Would give +54 Store TP

[FailureMidgard]

Should probably drop Pachi if you really want to try to force Rana to work. At the very least get a GK that does more auto-swing DoT than Hagun (Pachi does less).
If you want to make Rana work, should probably be looking at Onimaru for now...

[ringthree]

I think you mean Haramaki.

With Haramaki (6) and brutal earring (1), Hachi hands aren't needed.

25 (SAM)
10 (Merits)
5 (Rajas Ring)
6 (Usukane Haramaki)
1 (Brutal Earring)
7 (Usukane Sune-ate)

Would give +54 Store TP

Yes, Haramaki. I just had Hara-ate on my mind because it is staring at me, mocking me in my inventory.

And actually that build would be +56 Store TP, you are forgetting the +2 on the Pachi.

[ringthree]

Should probably drop Pachi if you really want to try to force Rana to work. At the very least get a GK that does more auto-swing DoT than Hagun (Pachi does less).
If you want to make Rana work, should probably be looking at Onimaru for now...

That kind of defeats the purpose of the proposition. Pachipachio is capable of getting to a 5-hit build. On it's face the reason that Pachipachio still didn't beat Hagun prior to this update was that even with more WS, it wasn't able to overcome the WS damage from the Hagun. The reason that it matters now is because Tachi: Rana is apparently capable of achieving close the Y/G/K level damage, with a higher damage weapon. The presumption is that if you don't have a 5-hit build for more WS (only the Pachi is capable of this) then you still would do more damage on WS with the Hagun. The problem with this is, as I described above, that you only gain 300 delay over the Hagun per TP phase, which can be lower depending on the amount of haste you have and if you have to give up haste to get to a 5-hit build. Onimaru would probably do better damage now with Rana, but it still won't beat Hagun because DoT damage isn't going to over come WS damage.

[FailureMidgard]

That kind of defeats the purpose of the proposition. Pachipachio is capable of getting to a 5-hit build. On it's face the reason that Pachipachio still didn't beat Hagun prior to this update was that even with more WS, it wasn't able to overcome the WS damage from the Hagun. The reason that it matters now is because Tachi: Rana is apparently capable of achieving close the Y/G/K level damage, with a higher damage weapon. The presumption is that if you don't have a 5-hit build for more WS (only the Pachi is capable of this) then you still would do more damage on WS with the Hagun. The problem with this is, as I described above, that you only gain 300 delay over the Hagun per TP phase, which can be lower depending on the amount of haste you have and if you have to give up haste to get to a 5-hit build. Onimaru would probably do better damage now with Rana, but it still won't beat Hagun because DoT damage isn't going to over come WS damage.

Yes, but this proposition is quite flawed at the moment:

1. Pachi is a pretty decent loss of DoT (and the accuracy loss is a loss in WS speed as well). You lose attack even with your proposed setup. You can't ignore this.
2. All Pachi/Rana testing I've seen so far is on EPs w/ 3 hits landing in WS gear. I would bet quite a bit that Rana does -not- have the inherent accuracy bonus that YGK have. What's this mean? When you fight a real enemy, you don't get to use your full WS gear, but instead get to load on accuracy. This will lower your damage #s more relative to Y/G/K.
3. The Pachi/Rana #s I've seen still have it ~100ish behind Hagun YGK. This is -not- close enough to even equal Hagun in overall WS damage, much less be enough to overcome the DoT gap (and see point 2).
4. For optimal damage now, even for a Hagun, it seems worth saving to 200tp every 5minutes to Sekkanoki Rana>Gekko. Pachi loses some more damage here (not a lot, but it adds up).
5. I'm sure there's more, but this is enough for now!

[Amele]

Should probably drop Pachi if you really want to try to force Rana to work. At the very least get a GK that does more auto-swing DoT than Hagun (Pachi does less).
If you want to make Rana work, should probably be looking at Onimaru for now...

nana-7hit might have potential, although I doubt its rana beats a hagun gekko. (nana 7 hit is same time to ws as hagun 6 hit, but gives one additional swing of damage) has str+7 dex+7 D+2 vs. hagun.

the weaponskill is probably nothing special though. so it would just be a toy.

[terraflarex]

I'm anxious to compare Rana To Kaiten, but I am pretty sure kaiten is going to be tops still.

[ringthree]

Yes, but this proposition is quite flawed at the moment:

1. Pachi is a pretty decent loss of DoT (and the accuracy loss is a loss in WS speed as well). You lose attack even with your proposed setup. You can't ignore this.
2. All Pachi/Rana testing I've seen so far is on EPs w/ 3 hits landing in WS gear. I would bet quite a bit that Rana does -not- have the inherent accuracy bonus that YGK have. What's this mean? When you fight a real enemy, you don't get to use your full WS gear, but instead get to load on accuracy. This will lower your damage #s more relative to Y/G/K.
3. The Pachi/Rana #s I've seen still have it ~100ish behind Hagun YGK. This is -not- close enough to even equal Hagun in overall WS damage, much less be enough to overcome the DoT gap (and see point 2).
4. For optimal damage now, even for a Hagun, it seems worth saving to 200tp every 5minutes to Sekkanoki Rana>Gekko. Pachi loses some more damage here (not a lot, but it adds up).
5. I'm sure there's more, but this is enough for now!

I think you are a little confused. I am not advocating Pachi 5-hit, I am saying it still probably won't match Hagun 6-hit. And I still think you are missing the point that using the Pachi is to get to a 5-hit set up for more WS.

[FailureMidgard]

I think you are a little confused. I am not advocating Pachi 5-hit, I am saying it still probably won't match Hagun 6-hit. And I still think you are missing the point that using the Pachi is to get to a 5-hit set up for more WS.

I understand that point fully, thanks. But it's silly to make your point to "WS more often", if WSing more often lowers your overall damage.

I perhaps am confused on what you think is better, but you seem to be going along with Pachi being worthwhile, when I don't think it's even going to be close vs merit level mobs.

[FailureMidgard]

nana-7hit might have potential, although I doubt its rana beats a hagun gekko. (nana 7 hit is same time to ws as hagun 6 hit, but gives one additional swing of damage) has str+7 dex+7 D+2 vs. hagun.

the weaponskill is probably nothing special though. so it would just be a toy.

420x6=2520
450x5=2250

Hagun is still faster...
Hacchonenbutsu Dangozashi 7hit is virtually the same time to WS as Hagun, but then you're giving up base damage also (although gaining some DoT...)

[ringthree]

I understand that point fully, thanks. But it's silly to make your point to "WS more often", if WSing more often lowers your overall damage.

I perhaps am confused on what you think is better, but you seem to be going along with Pachi being worthwhile, when I don't think it's even going to be close vs merit level mobs.

Well, I have posted three times saying that I think that Hagun was still going to be better, with explanation. That is why I was wondering if you didn't understand.