What do you think of this GameFAQs arguement?

[Rhianu]

Hi, I've been having a little bit of an argument on GameFAQs about what exactly constitutes good, intuitive, user-friendly interface design. The topic started as discussion of the new in-game tutorial that was added in the latest update, and erupted into an argument over whether or not such a tutorial was even needed in the first place, and whether or not FFXI had an excessively steep learning curve. Anyway, I was just wondering what people here thought about the issue.

If you'd like, you can read the original topic in its entirety here:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genme...topic=45369401

Here's a few posts quoted from GameFAQs to give you a basic idea of the argument:

Poorly designed interfaces confuse people. When people get confused by an interface, it only helps to prove that the interface is poorly designed, and does not mean that those people are stupid. This isn't circular logic, it's common sense.

"Poorly designed interfaces confuse people. When people get confused by an interface, it may be that the interface is poorly designed, or it may be that those people are stupid. This is common sense."

I have bolded the part of your statement that is incorrect. Though I don't blame you for thinking that. It's a common misconception among people who are not educated in the field of interactive design. All too frequently, people place the blame on the user, when more often than not, the real fault lies in the design of the interface. Here's a quote from one of the books I'm reading, called The Design of Everyday Things:

"The power of observation: If I have been successful, this book will change the way you see the world. You will never look at a door or light switch the same way again. You will become an acute observer of people, of objects, and of the way they interact. In fact, if there is one single most important part of the book it is this: learn to watch, learn to observe. Observe yourself. Observe others. As the famous baseball player Yogi Berra said, "You can observe a lot by watching." Problem is, you have to know how to watch. Before you picked up this book, had you seen a hapless user, whether an unknown person or even yourself, you would have been apt to blame the person. Now you will find yourself critiquing the design. Better yet, you will find yourself explaining how to fix the problem."

~The Design of Everyday Things, 2002 edition, by Donald A. Norman, Preface to the 2002 Edition, page xii

Okay, I found a short passage in another one of my books, so I'm sure even you will be able to read and understand this:

"Web sites are complicated pieces of technology, and something funny happens when people have trouble using complicated pieces of technology: they blame themselves. They feel like they must have done something wrong. They feel like they weren't paying enough attention. They feel stupid. Sure, its irrational. After all, it's not their fault the site doesn't work the way they expect it to. But they feel stupid anyway. And if you intend to drive people away from your site, it's hard to imagine a more effective approach than making them feel stupid when they use it."

~The Elements of User Experience, by Jesse James Garrett, chapter 1, User Experience and Why It Matters, page 17

Yes, I know this particular passage is focusing mostly on websites. But if you'll notice, he says at the beginning that this same principle applies to any piece of complicated technology, and video game GUIs definitely fall under that category.

"Before you picked up this book, had you seen a hapless user, whether an unknown person or even yourself, you would have been apt to blame the person. Now you will find yourself critiquing the design."

That isn't saying "problems interfacing are always the fault of the designer", that's saying "this book will turn you into a man with a UI hammer". Looking at you, I'd call it a raving success, because you my friend, are only seeing the nails.

@Daremo:

You still don't understand. Please read the post directly above yours.

I did read the post directly above mine, and for your sake decided to ignore it, as it's a bunch of horse crap. Horse crap with a purpose, but used wrongly here.

You seem to be unable to register the concept of directed responsibility. From a UI designer's perspective, UI problems must be seen as his fault, even though in reality this is not always the case. From a coach's perspective, problems in the game must be seen as his fault, even though in reality this is not always the case. If you want to be a UI designer, you should have that perspective. NO ONE ELSE NEEDS IT. When people are using an interface they have to use it correctly. That's their portion of the responsibility. The designer doesn't get a free pass to design a crappy interface, and the user doesn't get a free pass to be an idiot. The coach doesn't get a free pass to come up with a crappy game plan, and the player doesn't get a free pass to fail to execute. Those of us with an outside perspective can see when the failures are the designer's fault and when the failures are the user's fault.

Have you actually learned nothing from your attempted redesign of FFXI's interface? You can't please everyone. You can't make it easy for everyone. One man's cluttered main menu is another's freedom from annoying sub menus.

The only thing you could do would be to offer people the tools to completely customise their own UIs, and guess what? Some people won't like that! Find me the user interface that's perfect or even one that one of your book writing heroes has designed, and I bet you yourself will be able to think of ways it could have been better, specifically better for you. That might be very educational for you, indeed.

[Souj]

There's always someone stupid enough to not get a certain thing. always. no exception. no buts about it. how much do you want to pander to that demographic is the question though. make it too simplistic and it'll take away some of the experience of other people.


on that note, i'll just say I only read the 1st couple of quotes and assumed thats what the rest of the argument was about.

[Ramor]

I'd say that, like most gamefaqs arguments, they should stay on gamefaqs

While the entirety of the GF community isn't mentally deficient the better portion of the users who browse the boards there are, I like GF for "Where to find X,Y,Z" not for any other aspects of games for this particular reason.

I think this rather sums it up

You can't make it easy for everyone.

I had no problems with FFXI's interface, but I knew quite a few people who did, I suppose it boils down to how you organize things in a daily setting and then transfer those thought processes to a menu format

[Katlan]

GameFaqs could very easily have a good community, they just need to fix their forums. It's too easy for ppl to have multiple accounts and none care about anything. That aside... I like GameFAQS for what it is, a great sourse of FAQ info :D

[Ramor]

GameFaqs could very easily have a good community, they just need to fix their forums. It's too easy for ppl to have multiple accounts and none care about anything. That aside... I like GameFAQS for what it is, a great sourse of FAQ info :D

about the only reason I stopped using the boards

[Rhianu]

I had no problems with FFXI's interface, but I knew quite a few people who did, I suppose it boils down to how you organize things in a daily setting and then transfer those thought processes to a menu format

That's sorta what the argument is about. What they were saying is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with FFXI's interface whatsoever, that it was as intuitive as it could possibly be, and that anyone who had trouble figuring it out was an idiot.

I, on the other hand, was saying that the way FFXI's interface presents itself is too confusing for anyone except the most tech-savvy of players, and that it really isn't very "newb friendly" at all.

[Darus Grey]

FFXI's interface is actually very fluid and usable.

It's just not powerful(in terms of features) or customizable.

Just because it's minimalist doesn't mean it's *bad*. It's still the only UI I've used where I never have to use a mouse, and don't WANT to.

[Isiolia]

I think that there are limits on both sides.

First, I think the topic as it relates to the tutorial is comparing apples to oranges. The tutorials as a whole address what to do moreso than they do how to do it.
That's not so much UI design as it is providing direction to new players. Go here, go there, etc.

They're appropriate because there are number of things, such as food or the benefits of Signet/CP, that are not readily apparent to a new player.


UI is somewhat different. In general, I think a UI should be obvious. Not just for FFXI, but for most anything. Consistent, organized well, and not cluttered.

Granted, in most cases there's some basic understanding that needs to be present. So, to that extent, you can have users that just don't "get it", even if the UI is solid.

[BRP]

I'd say that, like most gamefaqs arguments, they should stay on gamefaqs

and a bit of

Just because it's minimalist doesn't mean it's *bad*. It's still the only UI I've used where I never have to use a mouse, and don't WANT to.

Its only problem is that it didn't evolve with higher resolutions. Throw in some windower plug ins and you have a nigh perfect interface for the game.

[ircgeek]

Dude, you dragged your topic over here just so you could get a pat on the back? Come on now.

[The Blackrose]

Dude, you dragged your topic over here just so you could get a pat on the back? Come on now.

A nice helping of this, with a side of

Its only problem is that it didn't evolve with higher resolutions. Throw in some windower plug ins and you have a nigh perfect interface for the game.

[Rhianu]

One of the things that the argument centered around was the map marker system, which I strongly believe is horribly unintuitive for the simple fact that it does not label the different pages, or even make it clear that there even ARE different pages. I did a quick and simple redesign of it in photoshop:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...s_redesign.jpg

I believe that the unintuitive map marker menu is one of the biggest reasons why new players have so much trouble finding the adventure coupon NPC (there are a couple of other factors that help contribute to that problem as well, but this is one of the biggest ones).

[Isiolia]

The map system in general for FFXI is horribly unintuitive, but a lot of it has to do with PS2 screen res I think.

IMO, a PC-centric map system would -start- with a mini-map (optionally) on screen at all times. Labels on the dots themselves instead of off to the side. That sort of thing.

I agree with your assertion that the markers not even indicating that there are additional marker sets is terrible design.

[Ishido]

Its only problem is that it didn't evolve with higher resolutions. Throw in some windower plug ins and you have a nigh perfect interface for the game.

Major, yes. Only, no.

The whole argument is based on who you want to be the main audience. If you make it complicated and cater more to high end players, you run the risk of alienating more casual gamers by barraging them with information. Make it the other way around and you have people complaining that there isn't enough information, etc.

The solution is to make it pretty much completely customizable, with a simple default GUI.

[Zhais]

That's sorta what the argument is about. What they were saying is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with FFXI's interface whatsoever, that it was as intuitive as it could possibly be, and that anyone who had trouble figuring it out was an idiot.

I, on the other hand, was saying that the way FFXI's interface presents itself is too confusing for anyone except the most tech-savvy of players, and that it really isn't very "newb friendly" at all.

Hi again.


Go play EVE a bit then come back and look at FFXI's interface. It is not limited to the most 'tech-savvy' of players for intuitiveness. Nowhere close lol...

[Lordwafik]

Oh got not Rhianu again parading his "updated UI".

It reminds me of anime fans who write fanfic and then get angry that the company doesn't use their fanfic as a script for the upcoming episodes.

[Amele]

Hi again.


Go play EVE a bit then come back and look at FFXI's interface. It is not limited to the most 'tech-savvy' of players for intuitiveness. Nowhere close lol...

didn't we make that suggestion before?

Rhianu! it even has a 14 day free trial.

if you want to play their UI on hardcore mode for bonus points, skip the tutorial.

[aurik]

Just because you read a few books on ui design does not make you an expert.

But you are right, if an app's audience is confused/hindered by the UI, it is the fault of the UI, not of the users.

[Rhianu]

I never claimed to be an expert, I was merely asserting the basic principles of good design. Thankfully, you people here seem to be far more intelligent than the people on GameFAQs. For example, Isiolia agreed that the lack of labels on the marker system was terrible design (which is completely true), and you aurik, acknowledged that it's the fault of the designer and not the user when an interface is unintuitive. This is something that the people on GameFAQs absolutely refused to accept, and they kept saying things like "people are just stupid", and insisting that it was always the fault of the user any time someone had difficulty navigating any kind of interface, and they kept referring to an episode of The Simpsons where Homer couldn't find the "Any Key" on his computer in an attempt to support this argument.

Here's another excerpt from the argument on GameFAQs:

"it's not the user's fault if the site doesn't work the way they expect it to"

yes it is. how is being presumptuous not their fault?

Anytime we encounter an interactive object, we quickly make assumptions - automatically and unconsciously - about its function and purpose. This is what we call "conceptual models." We imagine in our minds a model of how we perceive the interface to work. Every interactive product has three models: the designer's conceptual model of how the interface actually works, the interface's visual model of how it appears to work, and the user's conceptual model of how he thinks it works. If the designer has done his job properly, all three of these models will be in perfect, synchronized harmony. But if the designer has NOT done his job properly... well, that's what causes the user to become confused and frustrated.

so because a function in a car (lets say a car phone or something) works in a way differently then i at first assumed, i should blame the automobile producers instead of myself for not taking the time to actually figure it out beforehand?

can you not get it through your head that there is a reason for documentation?

[Beckwin]

GET

THE

FUCK

OUT