SAM vs DRK (Max Dmg Output)

[Fcube]

Sorry but this is not meant to incite any jobs hatred feelings but I am just looking to find out their potiential. This is also bascially a Apoc vs Amano discussion and based on finding out what maximium dmg output in merit situations.

Min X2/march X2/ haste are on all the time. If the sam sub drg, both jobs will hit max haste in EQ. No doubt that sam will win in the ws dmg department and drk will win in the DOT damage area. However, what is the total difference in damage output?

Any relevant considerations I should take note? and if I were to parse both, what should I look out for.

[Ayn]

If you're concerned about Apoc versus Amano, I really hope you're doing more than meriting. . .

[ringthree]

Too many factors to determine a clear winner, and even some of your assumptions are flawed. Like I don't know why necessarily a DRK would win on melee damage. Also, other factors arise like full Usukane vs. mix and match, Ares body vs. E. body vs. Askar vs. etc. Accuracy becomes a huge factor here.

If you are just asking for SAM vs. DRK, then I think the differences will be marginal and essentially irrelevant. Apoc and Amano are both incredible, as are most relics for DD jobs.

If you are asking just about relic DD's then there are some other factors to consider.

DRG should be added to the mix also. Gungnir with Drakesbane is on par, though they have fewer haste options, they do have Jumps which essentially eliminate attack rounds. They have access to all of the gear that DRK does except for E. Body, and they don't need the accuracy from it like DRK would, so Ares or Askar are more viable.

WAR is also another obvious factor, Bravura is excellent and WAR by itself is probably the most buffed DD possible, access to all the best gear except for Homam.

I believe there are several reasons that the focus shifted to Apoc vs. Amano, including personalities of those that have them, pre-two handed buff prejudices, antiquated zerg benefits, and even some still stupidly left over lolDRG.

[Fcube]

Yeah, maybe it is bad to just focus on just meriting but I wanted to limit the scope so I can tweak the jobs to out perform each other. As we all know that most stuff are situational, so I am trying to limit the situation for now.

[Nameless]

It probably all depends on if the Drk is allowed to use Souleater everytime it is up (hasso full time as well). A Drk with SE freedom is almost certainly going to outparse any other jobs with the same grade of gears.

Tho I think the real battles are between Drg War and Drk in term of merit situation. A fully merited Drg with capped jump and high jump recast is really nasty and can get TP in a faster rate than any other jobs. Pair that up with a devastating ws you got a winner. And if you add wyvern damage it is almost impossible to outparse them.

[Bagel]

PUP

[Yugl]

If you do venture into the DRG relic field I would recommend giving Ryunohige a shot since it appears to be more powerful than Gungir (If the DA Procs as much as Jailer Weapons).

[Draken82]

Sam/War with Soboro and Yoich is the best pure DD in any merit situation. To answer your question Amano normally wins on the DoT race as well as the WS race when parsing against Apoc. The Amano. holder (Jackyl) has full Usu and the Apoc. holder (Dankster) has the ideal setup for Apoc. but Amano's lower delay makes up for the additional haste gained from Apoc's WS.

The two relic holders rock hasso 24/7 in most situations because mobs die so fast. Apoc. wins the race in being more efficient because Apoc's WS cures you every time you use it. Meriting with Apoc. and Amano. normally comes down to who gets TP the fastest because the mobs die so fast you really don’t have that much time to melee. Apoc. and Amano are both insane DD tools but each has own little trademark.

[Kongolo]

Sam/War with Soboro and Yoich is the best pure DD in any merit situation. To answer your question Amano normally wins on the DoT race as well as the WS race when parsing against Apoc. The Amano. holder (Jackyl) has full Usu and the Apoc. holder (Dankster) has the ideal setup for Apoc. but Amano's lower delay makes up for the additional haste gained from Apoc's WS.

u mean /rng?

[Redshift]

You don't need /rng to use Yoich WS.

[Aux]

u mean /rng?

No, SAM/War and Namas is a pretty retro build these days.


However as far as the other weapons go, I think it depends which type of merit you are doing..

G. Colibri > Piercing users always have the edge in this one, not to put down non-pierce relics. Drakesbane DRG with Gungir and/or Soboro Yoichi SAM will vie for the upper hand. As far as Amano vs Apoc here goes, I think they would be around equal.. it's mostly a question of how much TP they can get in this fast-paced merit situation.

Mamool Ja > Here's where things probably start to even out, since there are no bonus varibles in dealing with Mamools aside from the Lurkers. I would presume Amano gets a slight edge, but that's just my personal opinion. It would seem to me however, that a Bravura WAR would dominate most if not all relics here.

If we're talking Colibri, in terms of your average DD without exotic forms (non-relic, average player, no elite gear), I think it goes like this for the merit type:

G Colibri: DB DRG > Pole SAM > Non DB-DRG = WAR/SAM > BB MNK/WAR > Ridill WAR = BB MNK/NIN > Hagun SAM > DRK > THF = RNG(?)* > NIN > COR > ETC

* = Never really merited with RNG, no idea where it exactly ranks.
Disclaimer: I don't hate PUP BST and such-and-such.

Mamool: ??? (Haven't fully thought this out, yet)

[ringthree]

If we're talking Colibri, in terms of your average DD without exotic forms (non-relic, average player, no elite gear), I think it goes like this for the merit type:

G Colibri: DB DRG > Pole SAM > Non DB-DRG = WAR/SAM > BB MNK/WAR > Ridill WAR = BB MNK/NIN > Hagun SAM > DRK > THF = RNG(?)* > NIN > COR > ETC

My parses generally do not agree with this assessment.

[brisk]

Soboro/Yoichi - Sam/War should be above everything else at birds.

[Aux]

My parses generally do not agree with this assessment.

What's your take on the ranking? I am open to criticism, I just tried to convey the most average on job distinction as I could get.

[Draken82]

If you have the proper songs (x2min +2 marches), debuffs (dia), and strong attack food then a Sam/War-Soboro/Yoich will dominate all camps besides KRT, if you have the ideal gear. I mostly use Sam/Rng for Zerg fights only and it normally rivals even the best of Drks (Kclubs) for DL.

[kandiekane]

Soboro/Yoichi - Sam/War should be above everything else at birds.

except for maybe kclub rngs, mandau thfs, and gungnir drgs

[kandiekane]

If you have the proper songs (x2min +2 marches), debuffs (dia), and strong attack food then a Sam/War-Soboro/Yoich will dominate all camps besides KRT, if you have the ideal gear. I mostly use Sam/Rng for Zerg fights only and it normally rivals even the best of Drks (Kclubs) for DL.

Really? I've never seen this happen before, ever.

How many WS's can sam pull off in 30 sec's? 2 with sekka at start with 300 tp (2k dmg), 3 with SP (3k dmg), 1 (1k dmg) with barrage (1k dmg), icarus wing (1k dmg), and 1 more if you squeeze a meditate in there (1k dmg). If none of these miss and all ws's avg 1k, you have total of 9k damage? how does this rival a kclub drk?

[Draken82]

except for maybe kclub rngs, mandau thfs, and gungnir drgs

None of the jobs above can hold a candle to it at birds. I haven't parse against a Mandau thf so I can’t say I would destroy it. As for Kclub rngs (culverin +1) I out parsed one 45% to 34%. Soboro gets Tp faster than Kclub because I 6-hit with a weapon that attacks 2 to 3 times. My DoT kills kclub rng and club skill for ranger is pretty low. Meaning most rangers have to use sushi to have decent acc (82-85% is decent imo). I have parsed against one the pimped out dragoons (V.Fork) on the server before DB the parse was 46% to his 37-38% (Yes, this was counting his little rat.) I understand Drakesbane is insane but I highly doubt it will make that big of difference. I would consider V.Fork to be slightly behind relic polearm.

The reason I will always win at birds is simple. I will hardly ever pull hate, full-time hasso, 6-hit with a multi hit weapon, and I will always WS twice as much as any job esp. Dragoon. I normally average 1.2k Namas on the parses at birds but my average can jump up to 1.4k if Dia III'er in the party.

P.S. Sorry if I have any Grammar errors in a hurry

[kandiekane]

None of the jobs above can hold a candle to it at birds. I haven't parse against a Mandau thf so I can’t say I would destroy it. As for Kclub rngs (culverin +1) I out parsed one 45% to 34%. Soboro gets Tp faster than Kclub because I 6-hit with a weapon that attacks 2 to 3 times. My DoT kills kclub rng and club skill for ranger is pretty low. Meaning most rangers have to use sushi to have decent acc (82-85% is decent imo). I have parsed against one the pimped out dragoons (V.Fork) on the server before DB the parse was 46% to his 37-38% (Yes, this was counting his little rat.) I understand Drakesbane is insane but I highly doubt it will make that big of difference. I would consider V.Fork to be slightly behind relic polearm.

The reason I will always win at birds is simple. I will hardly ever pull hate, full-time hasso, 6-hit with a multi hit weapon, and I will always WS twice as much as any job esp. Dragoon. I normally average 1.2k Namas on the parses at birds but my average can jump up to 1.4k if Dia III'er in the party.

P.S. Sorry if I have any Grammar errors in a hurry

Mandau thf has highest dps weapon in the game (13.3 dps, more on birds due to piercing). With 15% haste and 80% acc, or closer to 85% with feint on every 2 min, and 95% behind the mob, they avg 2k WS's with xknife hitting at the speed of a kclub with marchx2 + haste. I don't think sam/war with a C+ ranged weapon rating with a soboro (5.33 dps) is going to come close at Bird Camp avg'ing only 1.2-1.4k ws's.

[Lordwafik]

Mandau THF destroys @ colibri camp with very fast TP gain and high WS numbers so long as nobody moves the mob / the THF is able to WS.

My biggest problem in merit pts (especially at colibri camp) comes from me pulling so much hate from TPing the monster with my TP setup + march/min/haste . Now because the monster is facing me, I can't SA WS, and most melees in merit parties have WAA DON'T TA ON MEE WAAAAAAA syndrome so I can't do it on anyone but the bard who is standing still. With colibri it's a bigger problem as I get constantly feather tickled yatta yatta.

My fav setup on mandau thf is with a SAM, they build TP as fast as I do, even more, and can always open gekko, making the mob face them (if they're a good sam) and thus allowing me to mercy stroke / 2 shot the mob with Gekko>Mercy>Mirror darkness.